# Raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Good or Bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2014, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889 "2014-08-19T11:43:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/21 "2014-08-19T14:06:06Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We should raise the minimum wage, in my opinion. Raising the minimum wage has not hurt the economy at all, each time it’s been done, over the last several decades. And it’s probably helped – people who make more money spend more money, and rely less on social services. Effectively, we’re subsidizing companies to pay low wages with food stamps and other benefits for the poor – without these services, even families with two working parents could starve and have no health care at all. > > But there is a value at which it would hurt the economy, and I’m not sure what that value is. > > So I’d say we should raise it incrementally – perhaps a dollar a year – and then stop at $11 or $12, and evaluate the effect. If there’s no evidence of ill effects after a few years, then start again with the incremental increases, and stop at $15. If no ill effects at $15, then institute a small increase per year to keep up with inflation. > > Or something like that. Yeah, that’s a better proposal. We have never double the MW all at once, so there isn’t any history telling us what the effect would be. To keep things simple, if we’re going to have a MW, it makes sense to index it to inflation. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/22 "2014-08-19T14:13:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t know if $15 is too high, but the present minimum wage is too low. > [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I don’t know about $15.00 dollars an hour as a minimum, but something above it’s current amount is way past due. What gives you certainty that the current level is too low, but skepticism over how much is too high? What does it mean to be “too low”, how is that defined? Can you flesh that out? I do agree that if we do have one, indexing to inflation would be appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/23 "2014-08-19T14:34:20Z")
I advocate raising the minimum wage and bolstering the social safety net. $15 may be too steep for some markets, but surely the economy won’t crumble to pieces if the friendly neighborhood cashier can go home with an extra five dollars in their pocket every day. The days of minimum wage work being the domain of teenagers is over. That’s the entry-level wage for many college grads nowadays. Maybe this is a self-correcting problem…maybe we will start seeing a decline in college attendence rates and a concomitant increase in the average salary a college degree commands. But right now, a large percentage of 20-somethings are trying to support themselves on piddly wages. I think a decent life can be had on piddly wages if one is careful and conscientious and has a great support network. But it seems to me that way too many people don’t have great support networks. Maybe back in the day, a struggling 20-something could rely on their 50-something parents to get through a bad patch. But a lot of 50-somethings are struggling too. They lost their home during the foreclosure crisis…they lost their 401K’s…their marriages were wrecked due to long-term unemployment. If your parents are barely keeping their heads above water, who do you turn to? The government, that’s who. Government help comes with strings that Mommy and Daddy help don’t have. Everyone I know owns property. Who is going to buy that property when they are ready to sell? Will the assistant manager at Walmart be able to afford a $500,000 house on the fashionable side of town? Maybe China will swoop down and save us again. I dunno. So let’s throw some more peanuts to the working class. Maybe if the cashier has a little bit more pocket change, those bootstraps will be easier to pull. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/24 "2014-08-19T14:54:40Z")
It’s a complex relationship between employer/employee and the relative negotiating position and resident/government, in terms of the social safety net. I feel that many jobs need not pay enough to support a family, since many workers do not need to support a family. But, if someone can’t get a better job, and needs to support the family, we help them out, SNAP, etc. Lower the minimum wage, expect that more people will need support. Raise the minimum wage, I would also expect that fewer people will need support. Economies need the working class to have enough money to participate inthe economy, it can’t just be managers, skilled professionals and the wealthy elite. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/25 "2014-08-19T15:00:13Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > If raising the prices on my busy restaurant’s menu by 10% will increase my overall profit, then raising them by 1000% must be a great idea! > > Or, wait, could there be such a thing as curves and equilibria in economics? I mean, that sounds like liberal nonsense to me. Namby-pamby wind-sailing nuance. But I don’t really want to risk my restaurant business. What should I do? To be fair, the proposal on the table is to double the MW with NO data on what will happen. Your analogy imocking the reply sn’t like that. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/26 "2014-08-19T15:01:30Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > To be fair, the proposal on the table is to double the MW with NO data on what will happen. Your analogy isn’t like that. I was making a joke about **Shodan** ’s logic. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/27 "2014-08-19T15:09:57Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Economies need the working class to have enough money to participate inthe economy, it can’t just be managers, skilled professionals and the wealthy elite. As has already been mentioned, many people are trying to support families working at Kroger or MacDonald’s. With outsourcing and the last years of a bad economy, minimum wage jobs are no longer filled by High School kids looking for Summer employment. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/28 "2014-08-19T15:23:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It won’t generate free money. > > You’re welcome for correcting your misconception. This misconception isn’t mine. This is the kind of thing that can be classed as thinking there is free money - > [@](#): > > Prices will increase to some degree for businesses with min-wage labor, but many of their customers are low-wage workers – so an increase in their pay will mean more money to spend. and > [@](#): > > Raising the minimum wage has not hurt the economy at all, each time it’s been done, over the last several decades. And it’s probably helped – people who make more money spend more money, and rely less on social services. The evidence for this is [scant](http://www.nber.org/papers/w11342), unfortunately, [even for people](http://www.eastbayexpress.com/oakland/the-failure-of-berkeleys-living-wage-law/Content?oid=3900492)who claim to believe in such things. [Others](http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/06/03/we-can-predict-the-effects-of-seattles-15-an-hour-minimum-wage/) are more realistic. The basic problem being that there is no free lunch, and liberal thinking (so to speak) on the subject amounts to hiding costs. Either we raise the wage above whatever the market will bear, which is inflationary and increases [unemployment](http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/31/study-states-with-higher-minimum-wages-had-higher-unemployment/), or we raise it below that point, in which case it doesn’t help very many people. Certainly not larger percentages of families. [QUOTE=Richard Parker] If raising the prices on my busy restaurant’s menu by 10% will increase my overall profit, then raising them by 1000% must be a great idea! [/QUOTE] I aqm glad to see that you understand the logic. Just as the assumption that raising prices always increases profits is wrong, the assumption that raising the mimimum wage always improves the lot of that tiny minority who earn MW is wrong. Actions have consequences, and showing that large actions have large consequences is a way of showing that lesser actions have lesser, but still real, consequences. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/29 "2014-08-19T15:30:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > As has already been mentioned, many people are trying to support families working at Kroger or MacDonald’s. With outsourcing and the last years of a bad economy, minimum wage jobs are no longer filled by High School kids looking for Summer employment. If by “many” you mean a tiny minority. Minimum wage workers are mostly young, unmarried, have no high school diploma, and are working part-time ([cite](http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2013.pdf)). Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/30 "2014-08-19T15:31:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Just as the assumption that raising prices always increases profits is wrong, the assumption that raising the mimimum wage always improves the lot of that tiny minority who earn MW is wrong. While this revised version of your point is correct, it is also useless. No one is arguing that you can infinitely increase the minimum wage without having more costs than benefits. That observation is entirely non-responsive to the OP’s question. But your original point was not just useless but also wrong. You said “If raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour is good for business because people have more money to spend, then raising it to $50 per hour is better and $100 is better still.” That’s false. It is entirely possible for raising the wage to $15 to be good without raising to $50 being better, as you seem to have now acknowledged. ---
**Author:** ![PorchePine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@PorchePine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PorchePine)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/31 "2014-08-19T15:37:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So raising the minimum wage to $15/hour will generate free money, but $50/hour will not. What factor kicks in between those two points? > > Regards, > Shodan You do understand the concept of curves on graphs, right? Not everything is linear. In economics, almost nothing is linear. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/32 "2014-08-19T15:39:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This is the kind of thing that can be classed as thinking there is free money - No, that’s a pretty basic factual statement. They probably will increase prices. But some of their customers will now have more money to spend. This doesn’t mean it evens out, necessarily, but considering that the price increases would be pretty tiny, it seems likely that the tiny increases wouldn’t have a significant effect on business. > [@](#): > > The basic problem being that there is no free lunch, and liberal thinking (so to speak) on the subject amounts to hiding costs. Either we raise the wage above whatever the market will bear, which is inflationary and increases [unemployment](http://dailycaller.com/2014/03/31/study-states-with-higher-minimum-wages-had-higher-unemployment/), or we raise it below that point, in which case it doesn’t help very many people. Let’s start with raising it below that point, to start with, then. With low-skilled labor, employers have much, much more power than workers, including much greater power to collude with each other to squash wages, so “whatever the market will bear” might not be reflected in the actual lowest wage paid right now. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/33 "2014-08-19T15:40:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If by “many” you mean a tiny minority. Minimum wage workers are mostly young, unmarried, have no high school diploma, and are working part-time ([cite](http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2013.pdf)). > > Regards, > Shodan Not just minimum wage, but low wage jobs in general. In most places, $8 and $9 per hour is not enough to support one’s family. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/34 "2014-08-19T15:53:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > As has already been mentioned, many people are trying to support families working at Kroger or MacDonald’s. With outsourcing and the last years of a bad economy, minimum wage jobs are no longer filled by High School kids looking for Summer employment. I’ll buy that, but the jobs don’t require any more skills than they used to. I was a MW supermarket cashier at 15, back in the days before scanners. It’s a job where the primary skill set is showing up conscious and remembering your PIN. I can’t be made to believe that everyone doing that job deserves to be paid enough to support a family. I do believe that every family should get enough support to get by, which means government support if the wage earners don’t make enough. Ultimately, I think it’s a good idea to pay, one way or the other (taxes or higher prices) to make sure families have enough. I’d just prefer to NOT pay extra to the kid or second earner making a few extra bucks, but make sure to pay extra to the families with a demonstrated need. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/35 "2014-08-19T16:03:54Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I was making a joke about **Shodan** ’s logic. Yes, of course. And often that joke is justified. I’m just pointing out that given the OP’s paucity of an argument, **Shodan’s** “logic” isn’t really off base in this case. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/36 "2014-08-19T16:05:02Z")
> [@PorchePine](#): > > You do understand the concept of curves on graphs, right? Not everything is linear. In economics, almost nothing is linear. Few things exhibit a linear response. An apple a day keeps the doctor away. Two apples a day, even better. But two-hundred apples a day and we’re likely going to see major problems. This is not rocket science. ---
**Author:** ![PorchePine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@PorchePine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PorchePine)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/37 "2014-08-19T16:24:06Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Few things exhibit a linear response. An apple a day keeps the doctor away. Two apples a day, even better. But two-hundred apples a day and we’re likely going to see major problems. This is not rocket science. Which was my point. Shodan was claiming that economics was a linear process, when, in fact, it is not. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/38 "2014-08-19T16:28:49Z")
If a country has a safety net – government-paid healthcare, subsidized housing and childcare, etc. – then minimum wage laws might not be necessary. But that country isn’t this country. Developed countries which _do_ have such safety nets and _yet still have higher minimum wages than the U.S._ include U.K., France, Belgium, Holland, and even Ireland. These countries aren’t writhing in utter pain from such communist practices. Even Spain’s minimum wage is approaching that of the U.S. In real spending power, isn’t the U.S. minimum wage the lowest it’s ever been? What percent of minimum wage workers will be laid off after a hike? This question has been well-studied and studies linked to in the several previous threads on the topic. Short answer: Few. Fighting Ignorance is hard, but who has the patience to fight the ignorance _ **of the very same people who were given links to click a few months ago** _? For example: > [@Shodan](#): > > If raising the minimum wage to $15 per hour is good for business because people have more money to spend, then raising it to $50 per hour is better and $100 is better still. > > Regards, > Shodan I’m glad Professor Shodan showed up to inform us. I’ve just taken his advice: One chocolate was good … so I ate the whole pack! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/39 "2014-08-19T16:32:35Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > As has already been mentioned, many people are trying to support families working at Kroger or MacDonald’s. With outsourcing and the last years of a bad economy, minimum wage jobs are no longer filled by High School kids looking for Summer employment. I don’t have any problem with minimum wage being too low to support a family, provided there are decent, attainable jobs available on which a worker _can_ support a family. IMHO the level of the minimum wage isn’t the real issue; the availability of decent jobs is. As long as it’s possible to find a job on which one can support a family, it’s not necessary for that to be true of _every_ job. Not to mention, how much is “enough to support a family” varies enormously by location. So, while there may be reasons for raising the minimum wage, I disagree that allowing a person working a minimum wage job to support a family is one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/40 "2014-08-19T17:00:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, that’s a pretty basic factual statement. They probably will increase prices. But some of their customers will now have more money to spend. This doesn’t mean it evens out, necessarily, but considering that the price increases would be pretty tiny, it seems likely that the tiny increases wouldn’t have a significant effect on business. What are you basing your statement regarding the likelihood of the impact of price increases on? > [@](#): > > Let’s start with raising it below that point, to start with, then. Why do you think we are below that point to begin with? > [@](#): > > With low-skilled labor, employers have much, much more power than workers, including much greater power to collude with each other to squash wages, so “whatever the market will bear” might not be reflected in the actual lowest wage paid right now. Is there any evidence of such collusion with regard to low skilled labor? You’re alleging illegal activity - do you have evidence? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889.md?page=3)