# Raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour? Good or Bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 19, 2014, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889 "2014-08-19T11:43:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/101 "2014-08-20T12:09:15Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Not all costs are labor. And not all labor costs will go up; do you think lawyers will automatically raise their rates 10% after a 10% minimum wage hike? > > Believe it or don’t, there are scientists who do … wait for it … science.(\*) A very crude estimate is that a 10% hike in minimum wage will cause a 1% hike in overall inflation. Thus a nominal 10% is still a real 9% hike. Shabby? Many economists estimate the effect as even much less. And it would be less in the U.S.A., since many states already have minimum wages well above the federally-mandated floor. > > (\* - “A Survey of the Effects of Minimum Wages on Prices,” by Sara Lemos, Journal of Economic Surveys 22(1): 187–212, 2008.) > > Your 5-minute edit wondow has expired, **Fuzzy\_wuzzy** , but you may still revise and extend your remarks if you wish. I did not say all costs are labour. Substantial amounts of costs are labour though. Different industries and sectors will have varying proportion of labour costs. I did say most minimum wage increases will be eaten up by inflation not all. Economics being an imprecise science these things are difficult to quantify even for eggheads doing surveys on them. Citing an economics professor in an imprecise science in no way refutes my argument. Minimum wage results will depend upon many factors - how closed or open an economy is, the degree of unionization and so on. Plus, it is not just costs. Increased demand from newly created minimum wage employees will also increase prices. Again, this will eat up some of the newly increased minimum wage. Then we have the process of employers wishing to keep costs down. Mechanisation will increase. Minimum wage employees will be in part priced out the market. Some establishments will decide not to bother employing a janitor. An economy depending on its export market will also be hit. In a highly skilled successful economic area a minimum wage will not have the same impact as say, a rustbelt area. The consequences of a minimum wage in downtown Seattle coffee shop is not comparable to a similar hike in a worldwie competative industry. There is a reason industries disappear and move abroad. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/102 "2014-08-20T12:15:06Z")
We don’t have to rely purely on economic theory for the effects of an increase of the minimum wage – we’ve done it several times before. And for the increases over the last few decades, the dire predictions of the anti-increase crowd have not happened. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/103 "2014-08-20T12:23:15Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > But do we need cheap burger flippers? They have fast food in Europe that pays their minimum wage. A big difference is they dont have free drink refills in European McDonalds. Europe in general also has higher unemployment. There will be a trade off between increased minimum wage and prices/employment. Exactly how this breaks down is the great debating point. The answer to which I do not know. Then again, neither do eggheads with nobel prizes in economics know the precise answer either. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/104 "2014-08-20T12:41:30Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I did say most minimum wage increases will be eaten up by inflation not all. Evidently your study wasn’t included in Ms. Lemos’ survey. Your research shows a \>50% effect. Ms. Lemos found only one study as high as 24%, with most less than 10%. Perhaps you should publish your novel result. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/105 "2014-08-20T12:48:00Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The median. Do you know what a median is? (Hint: it’s not the minimum.) > > And do you not understand that the minimum wage is different in San Francisco, CA ($10.70) than it is in Bumfuck, Mississippi ($7.25)? I’m sorry, I didn’t see where you specified that your building is in Bumfuck. Your profile says Richmond, VA, which is[right about the national average](http://www1.salary.com/VA/Richmond/Janitor-salary.html). Even in Biloxi, which is next door to Bumfuck, the worst-paid janitors make closer to $9 an hour. In San Francisco it’s over $15. Just saying you might want to check facts before building arguments. And yes, I’m well aware that minimum wages differ; given that costs of living, and economic conditions in general differ widely across a geographically dispersed nation of 300 million, that seems a more sensible approach than centrally-dictated decrees from Washington. > [@](#): > > This is laughable, at least when it comes to the salaries of government employees. Again, you didn’t specify government employees. Yes, government HR and compensation policies are pretty much infamous for overpaying low-value-added employees and underpaying high-value-added ones. However, the vast majority of people do not work for the government. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/106 "2014-08-20T12:50:14Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > We don’t have to rely purely on economic theory for the effects of an increase of the minimum wage – we’ve done it several times before. And for the increases over the last few decades, the dire predictions of the anti-increase crowd have not happened. It should be pointed out that the proportion not in work in the US is higher now than a decade or two ago. A number of things will account for this - one of which will probably be the minimum wage. However, many other factors are also involved. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/107 "2014-08-20T12:55:50Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > So I’m conflicted. I heard that cities like Seattle which raised their minimum wage have not had problems with it. You’re probably thinking about the upcoming $15 an hour wage in Seattle. It’s been legislated, but hasn’t taken effect. It seems pretty clear that an incremental hike – from $7.25 to $8 or something like that – isn’t going to have much impact one way or the other. A jump to $15 may well be a very different story. This recent article covers some of the impacts: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/08/04/the-early-results-from-americas-experiments-with-higher-minimum-wages/](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/storyline/wp/2014/08/04/the-early-results-from-americas-experiments-with-higher-minimum-wages/) ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/108 "2014-08-20T13:11:36Z")
Whenever people get higher wages the corporations raise their prices. My first job payed $12,00 a week. My rent was $9.00. Bread was 10 cents a loaf, peanut butter 15 cents a jar. lettuce was 7 cents a head. When wages were $4.00 an hour I could fill my station wagon full of groceries for 30.00, now that some people get 43.00 per hour I don’t even get the small basket on the cart filled for that. One could buy a house for $800.00. My parents paid $1,000 for a farm house and 180 acres. That was in 1938. Look at some Sears catalogs and see what people paid. There was very few millionaires let a lone Billionaires, The wage spread is much wider today. Companies moved over seas, Some people are paid $2.00 a day. noe if that isn’t greed I don’t know what is! ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/109 "2014-08-20T13:31:55Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I think that everyone is (almost) in agreement that we don’t need an increase in minimum wage for some 16 year old kid who works 15 hours a week for spending money. > > That’s another reason why social welfare programs are better designed to help the poor instead of using the minimum wage: the minimum wage benefits the family provider as well as Bill Gates’ teenage son who is working at McDonald’s to learn a life lesson. The second one doesn’t need a legal subsidy. You don’t if that 16 year old is saving for college, contributing directly to the family’s income or buying his own clothes for school because his parent’s can’t afford it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/110 "2014-08-20T13:39:14Z")
I am in favor of raising the minimum wage, but I am _not_ in favor of doubling it. Yes, it should have been raised several times since the last increase, but it wasn’t. This is much too great a jump. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/111 "2014-08-20T13:55:37Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > You don’t if that 16 year old is saving for college, contributing directly to the family’s income or buying his own clothes for school because his parent’s can’t afford it. Is the 16 year old working a MW job in order to support his whole family on that one income? If not, then he doesn’t need a ‘Living Wage’. He might like a living wage, he might be better off with a living wage, but he doesn’t really need it, the same way a single mother trying to raise 2 kids on her own needs a living wage. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/112 "2014-08-20T14:17:09Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > They have fast food in Europe that pays their minimum wage. A big difference is they dont have free drink refills in European McDonalds. That is probably more important to most of us in the USA than giving employees a raise. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/113 "2014-08-20T14:22:19Z")
Fountain soda is dirt cheap. It’s pretty much 100% profit. I’m almost certain that the difference between the US and Europe over free refills is cultural, not economic. ---
**Author:** ![jessjones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dec6dc/32.png) [@jessjones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jessjones)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/114 "2014-08-20T14:26:47Z")
Higher wages = more money spent in the city itself. Win win for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/115 "2014-08-20T14:28:54Z")
In the long run, it’s bad. It imposes an artificial value on entry-level labor that is totally unjustified. The business will cope by 1) passing the costs on to the customers and/or 2) laying off employees. Higher prices and higher unemployment are NOT good things. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/116 "2014-08-20T14:30:36Z")
> [@jessjones](#): > > Higher wages = more money spent in the city itself. Win win for everyone. Why don’t we just give people money, then? Why force a business owner to pay someone more than he’s worth, while we all ignore the unemployed? If we want people to spend money, as a society, then we ought to just give people extra spending money, no questions asked. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/117 "2014-08-20T14:37:02Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > An increased minimum wage leads to increased costs. Increased costs lead to increased prices. Increased prices lead to minimum wage employees still struggling to pay for the same goods and services as they had before. Assume burger flipper wages increase to $15. The price of burgers then goes up. This price increase means your minimum wage janitor then has to pay more the next time he walks into a burger joint. Most of his newly increased wages are then taken up by inflation. We also have to assume that the minimum wage increase of a burger flipper will increase the wage of a burger flipper manager. Differentials have to be maintained. Fixed income individuals are then screwed. This fear seems reasonable…but only if you don’t stop and think about it some more. Gas prices have steadily gone up. Twenty years ago, we paid a dollar a gallon. When the price shot up to $2.00/gal we thought it was the end of the world. As a broke teenager, I lived for those $.99 McDonald’s hamburgers. That same hamburger is still a dollar. Indeed, the dollar menu has expanded considerably since I was a kid. I’m a fan of the donut. Last week I went to Kroger’s to buy an individual donut…only to find they were only selling the “day olds” in bulk. A fresh donut goes for seventy-five cents. A dozen of day olds? A dollar. A dozen for a dollar! These two observations are illustrative of how much bullshit goes into the pricing of consumer goods and how tolerant we are to said bullshit. Even if burger prices go up, will they go up by a dollar? Or will they go up by a couple of cents? Why should this cause mass panic? And I don’t know about you, but my salary hasn’t gone up in response to increasing gas prices. Rents are going up in my area–but I’m not going to get more money in my paycheck because of that. So why would I get a raise over the cost of french fries, of all things? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/118 "2014-08-20T14:37:25Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > In the long run, it’s bad. It imposes an artificial value on entry-level labor that is totally unjustified. The business will cope by 1) passing the costs on to the customers and/or 2) laying off employees. Higher prices and higher unemployment are NOT good things. Again… these dire warnings were made for the last several minimum wage increases, and it didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/119 "2014-08-20T14:55:30Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Is the 16 year old working a MW job in order to support his whole family on that one income? If not, then he doesn’t need a ‘Living Wage’. He might like a living wage, he might be better off with a living wage, but he doesn’t really need it, the same way a single mother trying to raise 2 kids on her own needs a living wage. He’s probably also not working full time, which is what living wage refers too. My response referred to teens only working for spending cash so it doesn’t matter what they earn. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889/120 "2014-08-20T15:27:17Z")
There are two questions in play in my mind - What are the goals of raising the minimum wage and are they worthwhile? Is raising the minimum wage the most effective way to achieve those goals? Personally the answer for me is no to both but im willing to be persuaded. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-15-an-hour-good-or-bad/695889.md?page=7)