# Ralph Nader is a self-centered ass hat! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2004, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519 "2004-02-22T17:49:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/21 "2004-02-22T21:44:20Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If someone says Nader (or any 3rd party candidate) shouldn’t run, it implies that Dems and Pubs have some preferential status in running, no? I believe the preferential status you’re looking at is “winning”, but no, they don’t, other than being able to win. If you feel you are achieving your political ends by voting without regard to whether or not your vote will impact who wins, then the point is assuredly moot. If, however, you use your vote in order to align political forces in your favor, compromising on candidates is your best, and pretty much only, bet. Elections are a game. Place your bets to win. Whether or not I have some special affinity for the number ten, if I get cards adding up to ten in a game of blackjack you can bet your ass I’ll take another card. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/22 "2004-02-22T21:47:34Z")
> [@schplebordnik](#): > > Nader’s constituency is as unlikely to vote for Kerry as it was to vote for Gore, since both of those candidates have the precise same taint of taking whatever money they can in order to get elected, and being willing to sell out any Dem constituency in order to triangulate to the middle. Thankfully, [some Nader voters disagree.](http://www.repentantnadervoter.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/23 "2004-02-22T21:50:34Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > The thing is, **Miller** , that if they run more to the left they lose the center. Nader is picking votes off the fringe, and what the Democrats lose off that fringe can’t be overcome by the moderate votes that they win. Then the Dems have as much right to complain about them voting for Nader as they do about the far right voting for Bush. If you’re not going to cater to the desires of a segment of the population, you’ve got no right to expect their vote. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/24 "2004-02-22T21:57:04Z")
Presumably, Miller, those that voted for Bush got what they wanted. If Nader voters wanted politics to shift left, it is pure sophistry to suggest their vote accomplished that. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/25 "2004-02-22T22:03:38Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Presumably, Miller, those that voted for Bush got what they wanted. If Nader voters wanted politics to shift left, it is pure sophistry to suggest their vote accomplished that. On the other hand, if they wanted to liberalize the Democratic party, they did accomplish that, in the sense that if the Democrats enact the exact same platform they wished to in 2000, it will appear much more liberal in today’s political climate. So they have that going for them. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/26 "2004-02-22T22:05:03Z")
Is it just remotely possible that Ralph thinks the Democrats chances this year are so strong that he won’t hurt their chances by running on principle? Or maybe he thinks that the alleged anti-Republican outrage is so strong that it’ll carry voters to the extreme left? If that is not the case I have to conclude that he really has _no_ clue what the voters in the country really think and that he’s surrounded himself with toadies who keep encouraging him and telling him that he’s the heir apparent. Toadies, or mirrors, one of the two. Does he _really_ think he’s going to win? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/27 "2004-02-22T22:44:16Z")
Why are you suddenly against Nader? What element of **democracy** do you not understand? Don’t all citizens have a right to stand? Why do you object to Nader standing? Tell me, will you be an advocate of whomever the Democrats chose to put forward because it’s the Democrats who put them forward or because of him or her as a person? I suspect the former, in which case I have no trouble condemning you as an utter idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/28 "2004-02-22T22:54:05Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Presumably, Miller, those that voted for Bush got what they wanted. If Nader voters wanted politics to shift left, it is pure sophistry to suggest their vote accomplished that. Presumably, the people who voted for Nader didn’t want Gore to be president, either, so I guess they got half of what they wanted. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/29 "2004-02-22T23:52:25Z")
Well, **Miller** , I think that’s a questionable presumption, at least more so than the one I presented. In either the other pit thread or some GD thread (this debate is all over the place) I presented the following hypothetical. Suppose the following. Florida gets to hold its election last in 2000, and gets to see the results of the rest of the country. Furthermore, people who are registered greens get to wait to vote until after all other Florida ballots are in. What do they see? They see that their votes will decide the election. The entire election could go to Gore if they vote for him, or it could go to Bush if they don’t vote for Gore. Given the results from all the other states, they know for certain that it cannot go to Nader. How do they vote? Consider another example. Suppose you are supposed to vote for two candidates. You mark your initial preference in one ballot, but then you indicate that, if your first preference doesn’t win, you would like your vote to go to the second candidate instead. _Am I to believe_ that a significant number of Nader voters (that is, a number that would have swung Florida, or another closely-contested state) would have marked {Nader, Bush}? Or that they’d mark {Nader, WriteIn}? Or even, {Nader, AnotherIndependentOrThirdParty}? In both cases, it seems clear to me that their votes would have gone to Gore in _at least enough_ of a quantity to allow Gore the win. My point, though, is that there is enough information available to tell them this would happen in the first place. Not necessarily that Florida would have been contested, but that 3-10% (they were shooting for enough of a percentage to allow the greens to receive funding) in a race for the center could be significant. In this case, their vote to Nader could be said to have acted against their interests (given the foregoing, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/30 "2004-02-23T00:53:40Z")
I just hope he doesn’t take too many votes away from Sharpton. ---
**Author:** ![Zjestika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8edcca/32.png) [@Zjestika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zjestika)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/31 "2004-02-23T01:12:09Z")
The whole situation seems so immature; the hostility some have towards Nader for entering the race just sounds like a child whining, “But… it’s not fair!” He has the right to enter the race, same as, well, anyone. Maybe the 2000 election would have turned out differently, but as surreal as it was, maybe Bush would be president anyway. To use Nader as a scapegoat is just weird, aren’t there actual folks down in Florida, like the governer of the state, who we could point our finger at who were actually involved in making a mockery out of our election system? Luckily, Nader won’t get so many votes as last time, especially without the Green party. Like a lot of people, last election I was feeling idealistic, now I just feel desperate to get a Dem into office. Still, instead of shouting “No fair!” I wish someone from the Democratic party would come out and say, “Good luck to you Nader, but we have the best man here, and we will beat Bush.” That would inspire a lot more confidence in me at least, and it would make Democrats look better, instead of like children on the verge of throwing temper tantrums. ZJ ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/32 "2004-02-23T01:33:14Z")
> [@Zjestika](#): > > He has the right to enter the race, same as, well, anyone. Does anyone have the right to not like it? ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lodoen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b3f665/32.png) [@Jeff\_Lodoen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lodoen)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/33 "2004-02-23T01:44:48Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > I took the opportunity to speculate the Ralph Nader is a secret al Qaeda agent. Back in 2000, it was their intent to take take over the US administration. However their intelligence was not very good and when they found out as a result of the election that there was little support left for Ralph, they put him back to sleep. > > However, now that Bush has sent America’s armed forces to Iraq, al Qaeda has learned that it is much easier to fight Americans there than in New York and Washington, particularly now that there travel budget is restricted. After all, day after day they are killing Americans and keeping the morale high. > Ralph no doubt has reported back that he can ensure a Bush victory by spoiling the Democrat vote once again, so that al Qaeda can have 4 more years of killing Americans. Otherwise, the pary might be over. You do realize Ralph Nader is of Arab descent, right? ---
**Author:** ![Fern\_Forest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71c47a/32.png) [@Fern\_Forest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fern_Forest)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/34 "2004-02-23T01:45:50Z")
I don’t get, and didn’t get in 1999/2000, why he does’t try and win the Democratic Primary. That’s his best chance to put himself in the White House and work on the policies he supposedly holds so dear. Why thrust himself into a nationwide compaign which spreads himself too thin when he can aim his message at a few states at a time? Especially if he’s not going to run as a Green. That’s the part that makes me see him as ego oriented. Didn’t he guarantee the Greens a certain level of government funding after their showing in the last election? And now he’s going to be running against them? Isn’t that going to kill any momentum that party had in the first place? Anybody know how pissed the Greens are? ---
**Author:** ![TSowell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e8c25b/32.png) [@TSowell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TSowell)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/35 "2004-02-23T01:51:35Z")
> [@Early Out](#): > > He’s gonna run every four years. Think Harold Stassen. I suspect that this time around (and in every future attempt), he won’t garner enough support to make any difference. > > In 2000, the threat of a Bush administration didn’t seem _too_ awful. After all, a replay of Bush I wouldn’t have been a disaster. Now that we’ve seen how bad “bad” can be, however, only the very seriously confused will cast their votes for Nader. > > I move that we start spelling it “Nadir,” by the way. Think Eugene V. Debs? ---
**Author:** ![Zjestika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8edcca/32.png) [@Zjestika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zjestika)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/36 "2004-02-23T02:11:16Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Does anyone have the right to not like it? Huh? Of course you don’t have to like it. And eveyone is entitled to their own opinion, too. Doesn’t really make for lively debate, though, does it? ZJ ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/37 "2004-02-23T02:21:59Z")
Not as inspired a rant as 2000’s Flymasters’ Fuck You ralph Fucking Nader. I didn’t agree with Fly back then, now I do. I can only hope he will get zero percent and it will dawn on him… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/38 "2004-02-23T02:25:47Z")
**erislover** : I have posted in other threads about 3rd party candidates that I think voting for them is generally a cast away vote. I’m well aware of the odds of Nader (or any other 3rd party guy) winning. But this isn’t Blackjack. That game has no principle involved. In the matter of elections, there is no reason to believe that voters have any allusions about whether or not their candidate can win, and that they are voting for the person they want to be president, period. If we assume that 3rd party candidates are nothing but spoilers, then the logical conclusion is that no 3rd party candidate should ever run. Unless you are willing to make that declaration, then I think it’s beside the point to criticize candidates for running or voters for voting. ---
**Author:** ![Zjestika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/8edcca/32.png) [@Zjestika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zjestika)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/39 "2004-02-23T02:27:02Z")
> [@Fern Forest](#): > > Didn’t he guarantee the Greens a certain level of government funding after their showing in the last election? And now he’s going to be running against them? Isn’t that going to kill any momentum that party had in the first place? Anybody know how pissed the Greens are? Actually, from what I understand, he would have gotten funding for the Greens if he’s gotten 5% of the vote, and I think that that was a state by state thing too. However, he didn’t get 5%, he got 2.74% nationally. ([http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm](http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/2000presgeresults.htm)) I know in MN at least when you file your taxes you can check a box to give I think $3 to the party of your choice, and I bet that that’s the only way that the Greens get any governmental support. ZJ ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519/40 "2004-02-23T02:29:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s not his fault Bush is in the White House: it’s Al Gore’s. That wooden-faced automaton ran such a shit campaign, he couldn’t even carry his home state. Gore never had a chance in the South. To expect any Democrat to carry any state in the South aside from Florida is absurd. > [@](#): > > Like **John Mace** said, if Nader’s candidacy was such a threat to the Democratic ticket, then they should have run further to the left. That they did not is hardly Nader’s fault. To have moved left enough to satisfy the 4% of nutjobs who were Naderites would have cost Gore 10% of centrists. How would that make mistake? The Naderites are left-wing extremists so far out of touch with the American electorate that they can never win, never make a credible showing. All they can do is fracture the Democratic core base just enough to put a Republican in the White House. Which they did (Florida, New Hampshire). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-nader-is-a-self-centered-ass-hat/230519.md?page=3)