# Ralph Vaughan Williams vs. Gustav Holst **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 25, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444 "2017-05-25T21:51:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pianodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e79b87/32.png) [@pianodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pianodave)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/1 "2017-05-25T21:51:06Z")
Hi SD, Who was a better composer? I enjoy them both, but am curious as to how they stack up against each other. If you had to prefer one of them in terms of their treatments of English Folk Music, who is superior and why? What is your favorite piece of these two men? My personal favorites are Toccata Marziale (RVW) and Second Suite in F (GH). Thanks, Dave ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2017, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/2 "2017-05-25T22:30:14Z")
I come at this from a different perspective, because I don’t especially care for either of them. Certainly they admired, and drew from each other. But strictly IMHO, Holst was better in more different styles, and Vaughn Williams never wrote anything that could equal _The Planets_. So, for a narrow definition of “best composer” I’ll say Holst. ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/3 "2017-05-26T02:09:21Z")
I agree with kunilou. Holst was a bona fide classical composer whereas Williams wrote the equivalent of classical pop music. It doesn’t mean Williams’ music isn’t enjoyable, but it doesn’t have the gravitas of Holst’s. Classical pop music can be very good. Witness Mozart’s “The Magic Flute” which is all sorts of fun and still exhibits considerable musicianship. ---
**Author:** ![Parthol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Parthol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Parthol)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/4 "2017-05-26T02:22:40Z")
Holst and RVW are two of my absolute favorite composers. I have a slight preference for Williams. Favorite pieces: RVW: Dives and Lazarus, London Symphony Holst: Japanese Suite, The Perfect Fool (Ballet music) I don’t pretend any profound level of appreciation; I just know what I like! ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/5 "2017-05-26T09:04:20Z")
> [@stillownedbysetters](#): > > I agree with kunilou. Holst was a bona fide classical composer whereas Williams wrote the equivalent of classical pop music. It doesn’t mean Williams’ music isn’t enjoyable, but it doesn’t have the gravitas of Holst’s. “Classical pop music”? :eek: Vaughan Williams wrote nine symphonies! He also wrote operas, ballets, religious and secular choral music, and film scores. If you want gravitas, he’s got it in abundance. My favorite RVW work is _Rhapsody on a Theme of Thomas Tallis_, an absolutely amazing piece. As for Holst, _The Planets_ is quite deservedly popular, but in some circles it’s considered a bit kitschy. I’m kinda “meh” about most of his other stuff. His two band suites are played all the time, everywhere—I’ve played them both more times than I can count—and I think they’re both pretty dull. _Hammersmith_ is better, but it’s not played nearly as often. They’re both good, but I think RVW is the superior composer overall. Oh, and sorry to be nitpicky, but RVW’s last name is “Vaughan Williams,” not “Williams.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/6 "2017-05-26T10:28:07Z")
I like Holst and I like Vaughan Williams. But which is better? There’s only one way to find out! FIIIII…er, maybe not. Holst for me. I’m not dismissing VW’s considerable skill and contributions to English musical heritage, but I’d rather listen to Holst. ---
**Author:** ![Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/les_espaces_du_sommeil/32/308_2.png) [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Les_Espaces_Du_Sommeil)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/7 "2017-05-26T11:04:10Z")
**Holst**. > [@erysichthon](#): > > As for Holst, _The Planets_ is quite deservedly popular, but in some circles it’s considered a bit kitschy. I’m kinda “meh” about most of his other stuff. In _The Planets_, the only movement that verges towards the kitschy is _Jupiter_ - I don’t like it much. And I see how _Mars_ could be considered heavy and shallow “in some circles” but there’s no denying that it’s incredibly effective. The only thing that annoys me about it is that it has completely overshadowed the other movements of the suite. Yet, there are some truly wonderful moments in the whole work, like the lovely violin melody in _Venus_, the mysterious four-note motif that reappears throughout _Uranus_ and, first and foremost, the amazing last bars of _Neptune_, where the wordless choir very, very slowly dissolves into silence. That’s one of the greatest, most poetic endings in classical music in my opinion. It’s like one last look at our familiar solar system before a one-way leap into the unknown. Of his other works, I remember liking the _Invocation_ for cello and orchestra. I listened to some RVW almost ten years ago and, while I found it pleasant, his music didn’t really impress me that much. And since this wouldn’t be the Straightdope without a bit of pedantry, can I suggest that [**Bax**](https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2007/oct/11/buildingaclassicalmusiclib4) [is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3i3zB0mnDU) [at](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bll-Luf024) [least](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypV7cPSfogw) as good as these two, and perhaps even better on the whole ? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/8 "2017-05-26T11:30:43Z")
I forgot to add my pieces. On the VW side, a really good performance of _The Lark Ascending_ can be absolutely transcendent. A less-good one can be trite and cloying. For Holst, apart from _The Planets_ I’ll throw in his _First Choral Symphony: The Mystic Trumpeter_ for something less well-known. Another choral work with a Whitman text I’ll recommend is his _A Dirge for Two Veterans_, written in the early days of 1914 - short but sublime. > [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > And since this wouldn’t be the Straightdope without a bit of pedantry, can I suggest that [**Bax**](https://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2007/oct/11/buildingaclassicalmusiclib4) [is](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3i3zB0mnDU) [at](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bll-Luf024) [least](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypV7cPSfogw) as good as these two, and perhaps even better on the whole ? Yes but: Bax vs Delius? WHO IS BETTER? And what if I throw in Herbert Howells as a spoiler? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/9 "2017-05-26T11:37:06Z")
How would you decide it? Is I purely a popularity contest, or do you judge it on technical points, or just what you happen to like more? Going by the last item, I’d give the edge to Holst. ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2017, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/10 "2017-05-26T21:03:01Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > In _The Planets_, the only movement that verges towards the kitschy is _Jupiter_ - I don’t like it much. And I see how _Mars_ could be considered heavy and shallow “in some circles” but there’s no denying that it’s incredibly effective. About my “circles” remark above—I personally love _The Planets_, and I own several recordings of it (my favorite is Bernard Herrmann’s version, although it’s way too slow). But in my lifetime, I’ve heard a _lot_ of trash talk about it from people in the classical music field. One of my music professors in college called it “absolute garbage.” The attitude among conductors I’ve known is mostly ambivalent—it’s entertaining and a guaranteed audience magnet, but they’re not crazy about it. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/11 "2017-05-27T01:18:40Z")
I’ll see your pedantry and raise you with **Sir Granville Bantock**. As much as I love Vaughan Williams and Holst, Bantock’s _Pagan Symphony_ (1927) and _Celtic Symphony_ (1940) knock it out of the ballpark as far as 20th Century British music goes. I also put Sir Arnold Bax on the box (heh) more frequently than VW or Holst. _Tintagel_ is a stunning and gorgeous piece of “program music” in the early R. Strauss vein. As for VW, I have an embarrassing fondness for his Symphony No. 7, or _Sinfonia Antarctica_, which started life as the film score for the 1948 _Scott of the Antarctic._. Bring on dem wind machines and wordless female vocal chorus. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/12 "2017-05-27T01:28:11Z")
RVW. Ravel agreed to take him as a pupil, something Ravel rarely did, and I am a huge Ravel fan. Also, his influence on music, just for his collecting folk music is huge, even if not for his own composition. There’s nothing wrong with writing popular music. Bob Dylan writes popular music, and he has a Nobel Prize. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/13 "2017-05-27T01:51:32Z")
I am a member of an Episcopal church with a music program that takes itself pretty seriously, which means I am subjected to more 20th century English music than…well, than I would like. I’m not wild about either Holst or Vaughan Williams, though I wouldn’t say I dislike either. Holst’s setting of “In the Bleak Midwinter” is absolutely exquisite; it;s too bad the poetry is nowhere near a match for it. I do like “The Planets.” “Jupiter” is my favorite movement, though, so that may tell you where I’m coming from. Most of the other studf I’ve heard of Holst’s is…fine. But I don;t go out of my way to listen to it. Vaughan Williams is a very distinctfive composer, and I’m not sure how I feel about that. If I flip on the radio and hear a piece with a folky vibe, a lot of low strings, and a modal key there’s a good bet it’s ol’ Ralph. I do like “Variations on a Theme by Tallis,” very much, but how much of that is Vaughan Williams and how much Tallis I’m not sure. I once sang as one of the sixteen soloists in “Serenade to Music” (the original sixteen were not available, being mostly dead) and I will admit that the piece grew on me, quite a bit. Stil, there’s a sameness about many (not all) of his works that doesn’t thrill me. Again, happy to listen to him, not one of my favorites. If I had to choose one, it’d probably be Holst today on the strength of “Bleak MIdwinter.” But it might be the other guy tomorrow. Both are head and shoulders above the other twentieth c British composers I’m familiar with, though. I really don;t like most of the output of that place and time. And I really, REALLY don’t have any use for Herbert Howells (I know several organists wh love him and I don;t get it at all), except I will make an exception for his anthem “Like As the Hart,” which is moving, especially when you know that he wrote it as WWII was breraking out. ---
**Author:** ![pianodave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e79b87/32.png) [@pianodave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pianodave)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/14 "2017-05-27T02:30:56Z")
Thanks for all responses. Let me ask a slightly more specific question. Whose folk song treatments do you think bring out the most beauty from the subject material? I am a fan of the modal quality of much of the music coming from the English countryside. I would also welcome comments on Grainger’s Lincolnshire Posy. How is Grainger’s treatment of folk music melodies similar and/or different from Vaughan Williams and Holst? I am just curious what the knowledgeable have to say on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/15 "2017-05-27T02:39:59Z")
**Ulf:**. Thank you for the tip! I’ve never heard of Howells, and I’m going to check out some of his compositions! (90 minutes later) I agree with you completely; that is some seriously gormless music. Does it remain popular in Anglican circles? ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/16 "2017-05-27T02:44:47Z")
Grainger seems to me to…do less?..with the source material? His folk based stuff sounds to me like a straightforward presentation of melody and simple harmony. “Hey! I found this great tune! Isn’t it a great tune?” I really like his original compositions, piano pieces, and works for chorus, but I never considered him on the level of VW or Holst as a manipulator of folk themes into complex orchestral or vocal presentations. ---
**Author:** ![erysichthon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@erysichthon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erysichthon)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/17 "2017-05-27T03:36:39Z")
> [@pianodave](#): > > Thanks for all responses. Let me ask a slightly more specific question. Whose folk song treatments do you think bring out the most beauty from the subject material? I am a fan of the modal quality of much of the music coming from the English countryside. I would also welcome comments on Grainger’s Lincolnshire Posy. How is Grainger’s treatment of folk music melodies similar and/or different from Vaughan Williams and Holst? I’d say Vaughan Williams—his _English Folk Song Suite_ is terrific—but Holst would be a close second. Grainger is renowned for his folk music settings, but his approach to harmony is too idiosyncratic and weird for me. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/18 "2017-05-27T15:00:32Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > **Ulf:**. Thank you for the tip! I’ve never heard of Howells, and I’m going to check out some of his compositions! > > (90 minutes later) > > I agree with you completely; that is some seriously gormless music. Does it remain popular in Anglican circles? Glad you agree, **Ike**. Obviously you are very thoughtful and discriminating where your music is concerned 🙂 Our current music director is less interested in the 20th-c English composers than some of her predecessors–for her, the default is normally Bach. But we’ve had a couple in the past that just loved Howells. I’d guess shifting away from Howells and his ilk is more a matter of personal preference rather than a manifestation of a bigger trend. Could be wrong though–I’m not plugged into the larger Episcopal music scene these days so I don’t know much about what’s happening in other churches. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2017, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/19 "2017-05-27T22:50:19Z")
> [@Les\_Espaces\_Du\_Sommeil](#): > > In _The Planets_, the only movement that verges towards the kitschy is _Jupiter_ - I don’t like it much. Surprising, since that’s probably my favorite movement of the whole piece, featuring music that (to me, anyway) exemplifies the excitement and joy of early springtime, and a march sounding like the national anthem of a country that would be worth unhesitatingly dying for. “Mars” gives me chills just knowing when it was written (1914). I should probably give Vaughan Williams another chance. The little I’ve heard did not overly impress me. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2017, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444/20 "2017-05-28T00:27:23Z")
Try listening to “Mars” on Hallo’ween night, live performance by a full (college) orchestra, a week before Ronald Reagan’s 1980 election, on a powerful dosage of LSD. We were all holding each other and sobbing in terror. (In retrospect, it was a terrible idea, but one of our _karass_ was playing Bach’s “Toccata & Fugue in D Minor” on the Woolsey Hall organ, one of the most monumental pipe organs in North America, and we promised we’d all show up to the holiday spook concert for his Big Moment.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ralph-vaughan-williams-vs-gustav-holst/787444.md?page=2)