# Ramblings on male and female dress codes at work **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 27, 2020, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598 "2020-02-27T09:49:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hermitian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hermitian/32/470_2.png) [@Hermitian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermitian)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/21 "2020-02-27T15:32:06Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > It’s the same where I work. Women can (and do) wear pretty much anything, and no one says a peep. Men are expected to dress conservatively, and someone \*will \*say something to them if they don’t. > > Why the discrepancy? This is the only reason I can think of: if management put in place strict rules on how women should dress, the women will become _ **very** _ vocal about it and claim they’re being victimized, discriminated, etc. By contrast, men won’t complain. I guess this is company by company. At my company, the women tend to police the women’s dress code. I know of women coworkers who have approached each other about wearing too revealing or casual clothes. The men would be scared stiff to talk to a woman about such a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/22 "2020-02-27T15:49:16Z")
The main problem with your workplace’s dresscode is the attitude towards pocket squares. Clearly overly restrictive and fussy. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/23 "2020-02-27T15:57:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think it’s both simpler and more innocuous than that. Men have been in the workplace, and in particular in management positions, forever, and so there are centuries of tradition built up on how men should dress. Women, however, have only been in the workplace for a fairly short time, and even then mostly low in the hierarchy, so there hasn’t been time for women’s workplace fashions to ossify in the same way. So when women did enter the workforce, and a female dress code was created, it was created to be sensible, which wasn’t an option for the tradition-bound men who already had a dress code. This was my thought upon reading the OP. The male dress code described in the OP is pretty traditional and conservative (even old-fashioned), and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it had been in place since before there were any women in that particular workplace. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/24 "2020-02-27T16:07:19Z")
One good story of how an office “dress code” got to be established in one DC area small business was when one of the VPs came back from lunch vowing to clean up his act a bit. It seems that he was offered a job as dishwasher/kitchen help at the counter where he stopped for lunch. He decided that his outfit needed updating and that goal apparently went out through the office. Either emulation or no one else wanted to be embarrassed at the local diner. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/25 "2020-02-27T16:22:03Z")
**MrLee** , I hope you realize you’re working at a very tradition-bound “firm” (and that word is appropriate). I worked at a very conservative company (and they were proud of being called “Old Guard” or even “Dinosaurs”). They were so afraid of change that they hired and promoted toadies who would dress “appropriately” no matter how uncomfortable (three-piece suits and ties in summer? Not fun). The problem is, society was changing, and they refused to or to lighten up on anything (not even a dress code). Younger, more flexible companies made exciting presentations to our biggest clients (in their Hawaiian shirts and jeans), stole them away, and we went out of business. But right to the end, everyone was afraid to look out of place. And your company policies do sound like they’re based on fear. Fear of being noticed, fear of being passed over for promotions because you didn’t wear the right shirt with the right suit. Management at my “firm” ruled by daily disapprovals like these, and kept everyone in a state of low-level fear. I mentioned this to my boss once and he surprised me by admitting it, even being proud of it. “Well, you figured it out. Of course we want you afraid. If you spend Saturday worrying about what we think of you, you’ll come in Sunday and get extra work done.” (yes, we were salaried) I bolded a few of your terms which sound like coercion, or at least management-by-fear: > [@MrLee](#): > > - All must wear shoes, trousers (pants), an ironed shirt and a neck-tie. > - A jumper (pullover) over the shirt and tie is technically an option, but is a maverick, **irreverent and subversive** move. > - Likewise, flamboyantly-patterned shirts and ties are technically admissible, but **would not be seen worn by anybody with aspirations to management**. > - A matching 2-piece suit is _de rigueur_, although senior managers **may get away with** a jacket that does not match the trousers (pants) > - A waistcoat (vest) may be worn instead of or as well as a suit jacket, although this is usually **only for more senior gentlemen** > - Additional approved flourishes are tie clips, lapel pins and double-cuffs with cuff-links > - A handkerchief in the breast pocket is considered unacceptably gauche for **all but the most senior management** … > > …subordinate women in client-facing roles have been **ordered to wear high-heels and skirts** when they would rather not - is this a similar kind of sexism that obliges men to wear ties but not women? Or something more sinister? Dunno…) > > …Put simply, in a formal environment a person (male or female) in a suit carries more professional weight, respectability and gravitas than one in jeans and a sleeve-less top. After “The Firm” went under, I ended up at a smaller, much more creative workplace where people didn’t care about what you looked like, they cared about what you _did,_ and whether you were happy and fulfilled. That’s my hope for you, **MrLee**! If you want to “carry more professional weight and respectability”, work somewhere where you can do great work that makes the world a better place… without worrying what others think of your shoes. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/26 "2020-02-27T16:27:37Z")
I feel lucky. I can work at any of three offices. The first, my attire can be from nothing (a bit chilly), to pajamas (not in my wardrobe), to whatever. That’s because it is my home office and/or bedroom, and no one can see me as long as my laptop cam is taped over. Second is a real estate office. No particular dress code, although something out of season would be noticed. If I feel that my clients (or potential clients) prefer a suit & tie, that’s what I can wear. Otherwise, almost anything goes, including shorts in summer. Third is a back room in a town office. No required code, and no major exposure to the public. I feel comfortable wearing anything that might be seen on a farm, a street, or the library – a pretty large range. Personally, I stay away from torn clothing, dirty clothing, or clothing that might suggest I just came from mucking out the barn. We all have our limits, right? ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/27 "2020-02-27T16:31:58Z")
I just want to know when yoga pants and a long over-sized shirt became appropriate for an office. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/28 "2020-02-27T16:50:52Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > At work my jeans never have major holes or tears, and I avoid tshirts with overly profane messages. My employees have a dress code, but it’s one they’ve adopted amongst themselves. Same here. I can wear anything my wife would find acceptable for me to wear at Applebees. (although she objects to Applebees) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/29 "2020-02-27T17:45:11Z")
> [@MrLee](#): > > If I came into work wearing jeans and a Hawaiian shirt people would \*be gravely concerned about me \*… If I showed up to work in anything other than jeans and a Hawaiian shirt I think the Superintendent and the Principal would be in my classroom within the hour, inquiring as to my mental state and general attitude. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/30 "2020-02-27T18:33:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > If you can get past being offended perhaps there is maybe some truth to this. Women over the recent years, and recent decades have been complaining about being seen as sex objects, being lower class, having to wear things like high heals with certain jobs a frequent saying is she got ahead by sleeping with the boss and using their body for advancement. Not to mention the whole ‘#MeToo movement’ > > Being offended helps one dismiss what they don’t want to consider or challenge. Is that reason enough not to offend? Take a look at movies with women in the workplace from the '50s say, and tell us about the evidence that their dress code came from prostitutes. And in case you hadn’t noticed, women get treated as sex objects by some men no matter what they wear. It happened long before the term was invented. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/31 "2020-02-27T18:34:32Z")
Meh, it’s a trade off I’m willing to make for peeing standing up, making more, spending less on basically everything, and having much simpler hygiene requirements. When all of those are addressed I’ll start complaining that I have to wear the monkey suit. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/32 "2020-02-27T18:42:24Z")
> [@MrLee](#): > > When I see a female colleague in a (ladies’) suit, I think she looks smarter and more professional than one who is in jeans and a top with no sleeves. Am I the only one? When taken in aggregate, and only in my limited experience, it seems to me that women in formal white-collar environments dress less professionally than men do. And, this isn’t because they don’t have the \*option \*of dressing formally - such outfits exist - it seems that they consciously choose to dress-down. I cannot think of a ladies’ outfit which is more ‘smart’ and ‘professional’ than some kind of feminine suit jacket+skirt or +pants combo. (But then, I don’t know much about women’s clothes). > > Perhaps I am missing something, though - as all this stuff is inherently subjective. Perhaps most people don’t see it the way I do - hence the OP. Crucially, I am seeing this through a _man’s eyes_ - it may well be that women in such workplaces look at and appraise each other’s dress in terms of formality and smartness using a very different set of criteria. If so, what are they? Are there any women in the executive ranks of your company? I worked in Silicon Valley. We consider people professional based on the work they do, not what they wear. In fact when I joined the company one of the first things I got was a little news story about our billionaire founder who hated suits and ties, and only wore them when testifying before Congress or meeting world leaders. Lawyers have to dress up. So do bankers, I guess to prove they can be trusted with money. But the people I worked with were plenty professional, men and women, even and perhaps because of the lack of a dress code. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/33 "2020-02-27T19:02:53Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Lawyers have to dress up. So do bankers, I guess to prove they can be trusted with money. But the people I worked with were plenty professional, men and women, even and perhaps because of the lack of a dress code. Lawyers have to dress up _in court_. And, of course, many law firms have a dress code. They don’t have to. My firm is my cite. (I’m currently sitting at my desk in jeans, tennis shoes, and a t-shirt). ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/34 "2020-02-27T19:17:06Z")
Thirty years ago, when I started in my career, “business attire” was the standard at the first two companies at which I worked. For men, that code was tremendously simple to follow: - Business suit (not a blazer and slacks) - Dress shirt (always long sleeved) - Tie - Dress shoes About the only place where any creativity at all was really allowed in this was in choice of tie; even a shirt of an unusual color (pretty much, anything other than white, light blue, or light yellow) would earn one a “please don’t wear that shirt again” from management. For women, it was a little less straightforward, but in the '80s and early '90s, it largely amounted to women’s business suits, or (sometimes) dresses. Most women’s business suits at that time had skirts, not pants, and (except maybe in the winter months) women were expected to wear skirts (and pantyhose). Then, in the mid-to-late '90s, a lot of businesses in the U.S. (including where I was working at the time) went to “business casual.” For men, again, that was pretty straightforward: - Dress shirt, polo shirt, or the like (or a sweater) - Khakis or other casual pants (not jeans) - Casual shoes (not sneakers) And, frankly, most of us guys had stuff like that in our closets already. But, my recollection is that quite a few women with whom I worked (especially the younger ones) struggled with figuring out what, in their wardrobes, did or didn’t qualify as “business casual,” in part because they _didn’t_ have things like that already in their wardrobes. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/35 "2020-02-27T20:15:01Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Got to thinking more about this, in how men and women are treated in the workplace. > > I have men and women working for me. If one of my male employees is slacking, doing substandard work, coming in late all the time, etc. I’ll say something to him. If one of my female employees is slacking, doing substandard work, coming in late all the time, etc. I won’t say anything. Reason being… I am fearful the female employee will go to HR and claim I am harassing her. Even though I’m not harassing her, my life will be over, and HR _will_ take her side and I’ll either be demoted or fired. (I have witnessed this firsthand at my workplace.) It’s just not worth it. Yea, it’s not fair, but I’m powerless to change the system. This is amazing to me. At least two different women have been fired from where I work for constantly being late/ not showing up. But then again there’s no HR for my company either. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/36 "2020-02-27T20:18:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Take a look at movies with women in the workplace from the '50s say, and tell us about the evidence that their dress code came from prostitutes. > And in case you hadn’t noticed, women get treated as sex objects by some men no matter what they wear. It happened long before the term was invented. In the 50’s, here is one: Note: There is a annoying sidebar that pops up but just click on the main article 2times or so and it disappears. In the 50’s for this job they didn’t just want you thin, female, attractive and blond but also single and ‘unencumbered’. > [@](#): > > “Having married stewardesses would take some of the fun out of the job for the single girls — and the male passengers,” > **[Pretty, thin, young and single? Check out these sexist stewardess job...](https://clickamericana.com/topics/money-work/fly-girls-stewardess-job-requirements-of-the-50s-60s)** > > See what was needed get a coveted stewardess job back in the '50s and '60s! Some requirements were grounded in reason, but others were just plain sexism in action.  ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/37 "2020-02-27T20:39:58Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > ISTM that there are two somewhat separate issues. 1) is that women’s dress codes have more variation. 2) is that women’s dress codes tend to allow for more skin exposure than men’s. > … The second is what used to confuse me (when I used to care about such things as office dress. Now, I’ve pretty much given up on cow-orkers doing their jobs minimally competently, so what they wear doesn’t even register!) I’ve worked in law offices all of my adult life. It used to strike me as curious that women could wear sleeveless tops/dresses and sandals w/o stockings, where it would be considered inappropriate for a man to wear shorts, sandals and a tank top. Some people seem to have no clue as to the image they present in certain attire. One time we had our receptionist show up w/ a t-shirt advertising a strip club. (He was later marched from the office for kiddie porn on the office computer! :smack:) And we had large women wearing very tight, short, and revealing clothes. > [@](#): > > Women over the recent years, and recent decades have been complaining about being seen as sex objects, … I used to wonder about women who demanded to be treated as professionals, yet they showed up in sheer blouses showing lacy underwear and considerable cleavage, short and slit skirts, … It really isn’t rocket science - and isn’t at all restrictive. Just wear something that isn’t too tight or too revealing, is in reasonably good repair, and which doesn’t contain inappropriate language. You have plenty of places outside of work to express your individuality in more outandish dress. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/38 "2020-02-27T21:15:11Z")
IMHO, it is mostly largely to two factors: 1. Women are likelier to complain “discrimination” than men, as pointed out abovethread; 2. Women’s clothing is a lot harder to define than men’s. Men’s is just shirt, pants, shoes, and a tie. Women’s has a much wider array and hence women can take advantage of that. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/39 "2020-02-27T21:38:52Z")
I worked at a place where almost everybody wore jeans or business casual. We got a new HR director and she said we could wear jeans on Fridays. 🙂 We all got a good laugh out of that. the main change was that she started wearing jeans on Fridays. The rest of the week she almost never wore pants, she wore a dress or skirt. I belong to 2 credit unions. At the bigger one people still dress up with jackets, ties, etc. The smaller one it’s business casual. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2020, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598/40 "2020-02-27T22:28:40Z")
I have worn essentially the same thing at work for the last 21 years… T-shirt and jeans. Now that I’ll be turning 40 this year, I’ve decided to up my game, and started wearing button-down shirts, nice trousers, a spiffy wool waistcoat and matching wool tie. The reactions over the last couple of weeks have been hilarious. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramblings-on-male-and-female-dress-codes-at-work/848598.md?page=3)