Ramifications of Self-Driving Cars?

I was incredibly upset that Devil’s Slide was to be eliminated.

That was driving.

I learned to drive in S. IN - hills, cheap roads, and lots of frozen water in various flavors.
Those roads killed a few kids who were behind on the learning curve, but the survivors have lots of fond memories.

Self-driving cars are nowhere near widespread adoption. They would get lost and stop dead in snow. Gravel falling from a truck ahead of it will destroy the windshield before it figures out there is something wrong.
The term “Blue Screen of Death” will take on a whole new meaning as “ooops - another bug” hits the news.
The scary part is: some of these will NOT be “errors” - they will be the ‘didn’t think of that possibility’ when two unrelated systems perform exactly as they are supposed to. When the situation is unexpected.

One thing they may well do much better than humans: condensation fog. Radar will work, lidar may well not. But: if it needs to “see” a center line, it is screwed.

By this standard, human-driven cars are nowhere near widespread adoption, either.

I just can’t see it replacing manual driving. Supplementing it? Sure. But not replacing it. At least not in the foreseeable future. I don’t see a car without someone in a control seat in the near future. I see it being pretty similar to how aviation is at the moment. An autodrive function that can do 99% of the driving but can’t cope with every possible problem and therefore needs a meat-sack available to take over. I doubt I will ever see a day where I am legally allowed to sleep while my car drives me home (not that I could even if I was allowed to.)

I think one major problem with pure self driving cars, with no human driver at all, is the possibility of a single system failure causing a major pileup. For example a mapping or control error in the traffic system itself that causes all traffic to ignore an intersection.

We must always remember that people make mistakes, always have, always will. By replacing the person in control of a vehicle with automation you are simply moving the critical human failure scenario from the car to the automation design and construction. It still exists though. As long as people are designing and building these things, there is the potential for problems. Garbage in = garbage out and all that.

Unfortunately I am too old to know whether any of these predictions are correct or not.

We already haveprototype self flying drones. Rich and law enforcement people will start using these while the rest of us poor slobs on the ground argue over the implications of self driving cars.

This is exactly what I predict will happen. Certain major cities will adopt it early because they are already making driving an expensive option. I don’t see self driving cars totally taking over out in the boonies, but major metropolitan area like London, New York and Tokyo will embrace it.

I live in farm country, most of the 4WDs belong to people who farm, hunt or both.
I like driving when I don’t have to be somewhere any time and when I’m not in bumper-to-bumper traffic. My daily commute is very short but it would certainly be nice to have someone(thing) else drive it. I did look into using the bus but the routes are not convenient if I want to do anything after work other than go home.

This is already here, the Tesla has a self driving cruise control model where it also steers the car (available as a $2500 option during the initial buy or later as a $3000 software upgrade - no extra hardware needed) . So we are already at ‘Supplementing’.

It won’t be too long before computers will be able to parallel park better than most people can. And for other forms of parking, the cars can be much closer together, because they don’t need room for people to get in or out.

Parking lots of the future will probably be segregated according to vehicle type. That’s more efficient than making all spaces big enough for all types.

What we’d probably have is big multi-level parking lots around the periphery of urban centers, where there’s more room. Your car would take you to your urban place of work and drop you off, then go park itself at a lot some miles away. There would be no need to park near where you are going, and thus no need to have parking spaces throughout the urban core areas.

Have you been away from the area for a while? The Devil’s Slide section of Highway 1 was closed to traffic in March 2013 with the opening of the new tunnels. The former section of the road is still there, and is now open as a county park for hiking, bicycles, and equestrians.

I visited a public beach once, about 35 years ago, that was down at the bottom of those cliffs. The rusted out shells of ill-fated cars could be seen in some places there.

I think just the amount of savings on insurance, maintenance, etc. would be enough to get me on board. I’m sure there will be some growing pains as systems are tweaked but isn’t that pretty much the case with all advances in technology? The first automobiles probably seemed intense for a lot of people.

Believe you me, I too enjoy a good drive. However, consider that my daily commute in DC traffic isn’t fun by ANYONE’s standards. I might enjoy a nice drive down a winding country road, or maybe going to the track and driving as fast as I can. The amount of time I truly enjoy my driving is fairly low. And adoption of self-driving cars doesn’t mean that can’t still happen, it just means it becomes a niche activity like so many other things that technology has replaced. It means that if I want to have a good drive, I can take a trip a few times a year to the track or a hobbyist can build a hotrod and drive it on the weekend.

I think you’re really underestimating how good the technology is getting and how quickly it’s getting there. It’s not perfect yet, it may never be, but the question isn’t about whether or not it’s perfectly safe, it’s about how it compares to human drivers. Even now, overwhelmingly, it’s statistically much safer, and a lot of that is due to the unpredictability of human drivers, so when a switch starts to happen, and as the technology improves they’ll get even safer.

And yes, there will be errors and even deaths as a result of these errors, but deaths are already a huge part of travel now. The important thing here is that when we DO have bugs in the code or things not considered, each crash becomes a case that can be identified and fixed. With humans, we KNOW drinking and driving, texting, driving while sleepy, other distractions are dangerous and people still do it. Even the best drivers in the safest drivers might be momentarily distracted, might be more worn out than expected, might forget to check their mirror, and that can have tragic consequences.

Do not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If we field these cars and 10,000 people die in the US as a result, yes, that sucks, but that’s still a massive improvement over the current 33,000 mentioned upthread.
And there’s other benefits too. With more SDCs on the road, they can drive more efficiently, taking advantage of drafting by staying near each other at high speeds, minimizing idling and stopping/start by planning intersections and turns using more cooperative scheduling techniques than traffic lights. I suspect that could mean massive improvements in greenhouse emissions even if current engine technology doesn’t improve. All this greater efficiency also means faster commute times. I see on a daily basis that the roads definitely have the capacity, but the issue is inefficient lane changing, traffic lights, etc. Bet most people who deal with city traffic could see even their commutes drop even during rush hour to nearly what they are in off hours. Hell, with higher safe speeds and essentially zero lights, it might be even faster. And relating that back to efficiency, how much more does a 25-30 minute commute save over an 75-90 minute commute?

Or imagine, as others mentioned, having a car that can park itself, or put itself to use either shared with others or doing a taxi type service WHILE you’re working. So that means no more hunting for parking spots, paying for expensive parking, crowded streets and ugly parking lots in important areas. How cool would it be to just be dropped off and picked up right at the door at work? Imagine how much more efficiently roads in cities could be used or how it might improve overall city planning around needing less space for roads and being able to condense parking to other areas.

And something I particularly look forward to is the idea that I can use that time and energy for something more productive. Sure, I can listen to music, or for others so inclined, pod casts or audio books or make phone calls, but if I have a lot of work to do, write code or emails or reports or a TV show or movie I want to catch up on. I can’t. On top of that, driving requires a lot of attention ESPECIALLY stop and go traffic. It’s exhausting and being able to spend that focus and time and energy elsewhere would do wonders for my productivity in work AND in life. And even though my commute is long, I know people that have even worse ones, and imagine the huge boost in quality of life

There’s a lot of things about driving that cars do better, particularly including much faster reaction times and never being distracted. The a good but still typical human reaction time is maybe 200ms, give or take, assuming one is actually fully aware. A computer can react in a tiny fraction of that. At 60mph, 200ms reaction time, which is about 17.5 ft. That can easily mean the difference between a serious crash and being able to avoid it altogether.

Similarly, like you mention with reduced vision conditions, a car can be engineered to not only have no blind spots, but to check them in multiple ways, more frequently, and in higher resolution. Also, computers can share information about road conditions. If there’s a wreck or some kind of obstacle (fallen branches, debris, flooding) or slick/icy or potholes, all of that can be taken into consideration well ahead of time not only in making sure it’s handled well when they come across it, but possibly routing completely around some dangerous conditions.

I think one of the more complicated interactions that self driving cars will need to overcome is stupid/devious humans purposely screwing with them. I heard of a group of bicyclist that were attempting to screw with a self driving google car trying to get it to hit them so they could sue. Don’t think they were successful. Unlike a human driver the computer tends to do the sensible thing when it gets in trouble, it slows down. It doesn’t answer aggression with aggression. That alone would probably throw most people off. :wink:

While I can certainly see the advantages of a SDC in big cities and other heavily congested areas, in the rest of the country I can tell you, if these things are anything like the Googlemobile they are nothing but moving roadblocks, and will be treated like a portable slalom course by my Boxster S.

You kids – Get off my lawn!!

So you’re saying self-driving cars will be routinely overtaken by manually-driven cars ? Why is this a problem?

There are an awful lot of motorcycles on the roads and I don’t see them getting legislated away; there will always be human driven vehicles on the roads. (Self-driving motorcycles would make no sense, lol)

Why would the car circle around and waste energy? Why not send it back home, and have it come back to pick you up? Or send it to a parking lot in a less congested part of the city?

How about self-driving bicycles?

:wink:

That’s a bug!

I don’t think self-driving cars, no matter how capable they are, will eliminate private car ownership or change the world nearly as much as people seem to think, because they don’t really change the economics of cars that much. Cars are expensive to operate, and self-driving cars won’t be any different.

Lots of people in this thread seem to assume that, rather than own your own car, people will just use an app like Uber and get driven to their destination by whatever self-driving car happens to be nearby, and that the reason they’ll do this is because this will somehow be much cheaper than owning and operating their own self-driving car.

I don’t think these cost savings really exist. This is same “rent vs. buy” choice that people make with regard to all sorts of products. Renting is usually more expensive, not less, because you not only have to pay for the financing, use and depreciation of whatever item you’re renting (which is the cost that you would bear as an owner anyway), but also the overhead required to manage the rental operation, and profit for the owner.

If your lifestyle requires driving 12,000 miles per year, you still have to pay for that much fuel and that much wear and tear and depreciation on whatever car is driving you, it doesn’t magically go away just because it’s not your car. The cost of insurance is irrelevant, since it is reduced no matter who owns the car.

Since you have to pay these expenses anyway, I think most people will choose to own, not rent, their self-driving car, because of the numerous advantages of owning a car for your private use:

  1. Convenience - the car is always immediately accessible for your use and yours alone, and is always available.
  2. Budgeting - you can predict exactly what the car will cost you. The cost of using the car does not change with demand, on holiday weekends, etc.
  3. Customization - you can pick a car that meets your exact needs. Amount of storage, number of seats, ride comfort, “luxuriousness” of the interior, etc.
  4. Cleanliness and comfort - you are not using a car that hundreds of other people of unknown hygiene have been in. Ever been in a cab where all the surfaces where plastic to easily wash off the vomit? Why would a self-driving “cab” change the economics that lead to that decision? (who cleans the vomit out of a self-driving cab anyway?)

Cars are expensive because the production and operation of a machine that transports you safely across long distances at high speeds is expensive. The fact that the machine is able to steer itself won’t fundamentally change that expense.

People complain that buying a $30,000 car is a huge expense and it sits idle for 97% of the day and think that this is a waste of money and resources. Actually, it’s not. The $30,000 car can last for 10 years precisely because it sits idle for 97% of the day. If you instead assume that a self-driving car could be active for 50% of the day, it would cover approximately 200,000 miles in one year. Instead of having 300 million cars in America that last for approximately 10 years before being worn out, we’d have 30 million cars that last for only 1 year. This might save some money overall, but it won’t be an order of magnitude change in the economics of manufacturing and operating cars.

For these sorts of reason I disagree with many of the other posters in here. I don’t think parking will fundamentally change. Stores will still need parking nearby because most people don’t spend hours and hours doing their shopping - you might spend 20 minutes inside a store. The parking lots could certainly be more densely packed, and less conveniently located for shoppers than they need to be now, but there will still have to be parking quite close to any area where people are shopping.

Even businesses, which might assume that their workers arrive and leave at a fixed schedule and stay inside for 8 hours, will need parking lots. Land in the US is still cheap, and parking lots are cheap. Energy (and CO2 emissions) are not. Having cars drop people off at work, and then drive themselves halfway across town (or back to their owner’s garage, or whatever) to park every day, is not economical in terms of energy consumption and wear and tear on the car.

The idea that people will carpool to their destinations using self-driving cars also seems unrealistic. People could save lots of money by carpooling already, and they choose not to because it is inconvenient and it costs them time. I don’t see how self-driving cars change that dynamic dramatically.

Lots of people seem to think that self-driving cars will lead to the ultimate decline of the automobile. I think self-driving cars will make cars a more fundamental and integral part of American society than they are already, and will actually make us more dependent on cars, not less. The combination of cars, mobile devices, high-speed wireless communications, and virtual reality will mean that the act of “driving somewhere” is no longer a waste of time.

Today, most people who drive to work consider their commute a waste of time, so they try to live close to their office. If you could actually get work done on your commute (or leisure), then it will actually be easier for people to buy homes in sprawling suburban developments far from their office (though obviously the cost of the commute will still be a limiting factor).

Traveling for leisure will change dramatically as well. I live about an 80 minutes away from a major metro area with lots of fun things to do. On the weekends, I hesitate to make the trip up there because it takes about 3 hours out of my day roundtrip, and while I enjoy driving, driving on the interstate isn’t anything special, and driving back while tired after a long day is kind of a pain. If I could just hop in my car and read a book, watch TV, or play video games on the way, I’d probably make that trip every weekend!