# Ramira - So as Not to Hijack the ATMB Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 12, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476 "2015-10-12T20:36:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/61 "2015-10-13T20:34:53Z")
Ironic the criticism coming from you. amusing also. Yes he makes hand waving that their are the Good Muslims like the Good Negros, but the Islam is a Bad Religion (“a bad religion”). It is a familiar rhetorical device. I am comfortable with my integrity and my intelligence in not viewing the statements as being more than a thin clothing. I am even sure he has muslim friends. The soviets, in their nasty history had a phrase for the persons naive who believed easily disguising discourses used to cover, ‘the useful idiots.’ It remains of amusement that you continue the ideological tribal responses habits. disdain, ramira ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/62 "2015-10-13T20:44:48Z")
I can’t tell - are you admitting having lied about what **Tithonus** said, or not? > [@](#): > > The soviets, in their nasty history had a phrase for the persons naive who believed easily disguising discourses used to cover, ‘the useful idiots.’ What did they call people like you, who weren’t useful? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/63 "2015-10-13T20:46:35Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I am sure, like your algorithm repetition of over the decade on how unfair the discourse is on your poor oppressed in the sdmb political tendency. And your evasion of using any specifics on any argument in place of the repetition of the generalities about ISTM or impression or other of the minor variation in the standard algorithm of response. > > Of course you can show I am wrong about the lack of the ability to understand or to process outside of the narrow robotic of the tribal ideologue by showing where the arguments have run out in the science discussion… > > mais voila it is not likely the programming can change from the repitition of the template of exhausted one liners and non specifics intended to provoke those you think not part of your ideological tribe. Whilst I have no stick in this pudding, it is evident that the robotic dullness of your anti-robotic declarations would be minimally relieved by the insertion of a timely comma or two. There are bulk discounts on punctuation currently available on eBay. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/64 "2015-10-13T20:48:24Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I can’t tell - are you admitting having lied about what **Tithonus** said, or not? I am afraid I can not help ideological robots who are constrained by fixed reading algorithms. How one can lie about the truth is confusing, but I suppose for the robotic reader with the limited algorithm, this can so appear. > [@](#): > > What did they call people like you, who weren’t useful? Economists is the usual term for us. disdain, ramira ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/65 "2015-10-13T20:54:04Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > You really are thick, aren’t you? As it happens, I _do_ think you can criticise Judaism as a belief system without criticising Jews themselves. Not to interrupt the Pit, but I think there may be a disconnect here. I don’t consider beliefs to have any existence at all outside of people’s noggins. If you criticize a belief system, you are implicitly criticizing those who hold that belief system. Which is perfectly fine to do. I’ll criticize white supremacists all the livelong day. The problem is that a belief system like “Islam” is not a belief system at all. It’s at minimum dozens of different, more-or-less-related belief systems. The belief system in the noggin of a middle-class feminist Muslim in Santa Barbara is going to be extremely different from the belief system in the head of an ISIS thug. Discussing “Islam” as a whole is borderline incoherent. The few elements the two belief systems share in common are not the elements that are repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/66 "2015-10-13T21:02:01Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > . I think the idea of a “chosen people” is a harmful one, The “[chosen people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people)” phrase doesn’t mean that “We are superior”. It’s more of a “we were chosen to accomplish this particular mission or task”, type of thing. If you’re going to criticize something, at least get it right and know what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/67 "2015-10-13T21:27:24Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > The “chosen people” phrase doesn’t mean that “We are superior”. It’s more of a “we were chosen to accomplish this particular mission or task”, type of thing. > > If you’re going to criticize something, at least get it right and know what you’re talking about. While the phrase “chosen people” is obviously open to interpretation, my contention is that _all_ interpretations are harmful, to greater or lesser degrees. In its most literal sense, the phrase _does_ confer a certain superiority, and this is substantiated by various passages in the Torah, most notably in Deuteronomy 7:6 _“For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.”_ However, this is, as you imply, a minority opinion. Most Jews hold that the phrase “chosen people” means “chosen for a purpose” and doesn’t imply Jewish superiority. This also has significant textual support, particularly Amos 3:2 _"“You alone have I singled out of all the families of the earth—that is why I will call you to account for your iniquities”_ and Exodus 19:5 _“'Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;”_ The crux of the matter, as I see it, is that, whichever interpretation you favour, both facilitate self-segregation to one extent or another. I take it as axiomatic that any tendency towards self-segregation by any group in any society can only lead to resentment against that group. A cursory glance through the history of the Jews in Europe reveals numerous instances of this actually occurring. Of course, the blame for mistreatment of the Jews falls squarely on those who mistreated them, and they might well have done it anyway, but the doctrine of the “chosen people” undoubtedly gave the anti-semites of the middle-ages more ammunition than they would otherwise have had. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/68 "2015-10-13T21:56:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > mhThe problem is that a belief system like “Islam” is not a belief system at all. It’s at minimum dozens of different, more-or-less-related belief systems. The belief system in the noggin of a middle-class feminist Muslim in Santa Barbara is going to be extremely different from the belief system in the head of an ISIS thug. Discussing “Islam” as a whole is borderline incoherent. The few elements the two belief systems share in common are not the elements that are repugnant. The same could be said about Christianity, a religion which is far less harsh, unforgiving, punitive, misogynist and homophobic than Islam is in general, yet the left in this country seems far more critical, condemning and insulting of and toward Christianity, up to and including efforts to remove it as much as possible from public view. This is both confusing and amusing to those of us on the right who are constantly bombarded with liberal outrage over homophobia and misogyny. Why does Islam get a pass but Christianity doesn’t? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/69 "2015-10-13T21:57:54Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The problem is that a belief system like “Islam” is not a belief system at all. It’s at minimum dozens of different, more-or-less-related belief systems. The belief system in the noggin of a middle-class feminist Muslim in Santa Barbara is going to be extremely different from the belief system in the head of an ISIS thug. Discussing “Islam” as a whole is borderline incoherent. The few elements the two belief systems share in common are not the elements that are repugnant. So in your view, is there any way to criticize only those repugnant beliefs, and the believers who hold them, that won’t be countered with sarcastic sneering about “Good Muslims” and “Good Negroes”? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/70 "2015-10-13T22:32:23Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The same could be said about Christianity, a religion which is far less harsh, unforgiving, punitive, misogynist and homophobic than Islam is in general, yet the left in this country seems far more critical, condemning and insulting of and toward Christianity, up to and including efforts to remove it as much as possible from public view. This is both confusing and amusing to those of us on the right who are constantly bombarded with liberal outrage over homophobia and misogyny. Why does Islam get a pass but Christianity doesn’t? You’re so full of shit. > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > So in your view, is there any way to criticize only those repugnant beliefs, and the believers who hold them, that won’t be countered with sarcastic sneering about “Good Muslims” and “Good Negroes”? Absolutely. I criticize the death cult that’s infested some sectors of Islam all the time. I don’t think that’s a problem. Talk about the subset of Muslims that holds the repugnant views, and I’m cool with you. Might others sneer about “Good Muslims”? Sure. Others might be assholes. If you’re being precise and accurate in what you say, you’re in the clear from non-assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/71 "2015-10-13T23:02:34Z")
If I may be full of shit a moment longer, permit me to ask also why one never hears anyone on the left champion drilling down and criticizing only the repugnant Christians, conservatives, Republicans and old white guys and giving the good ones a pass? As far as I can tell broad brush condemnation is the order of the day when it comes to these groups. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/72 "2015-10-13T23:03:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The same could be said about Christianity, a religion which is far less harsh, unforgiving, punitive, misogynist and homophobic than Islam is in general, yet the left in this country seems far more critical, condemning and insulting of and toward Christianity, up to and including efforts to remove it as much as possible from public view. This is both confusing and amusing to those of us on the right who are constantly bombarded with liberal outrage over homophobia and misogyny. Why does Islam get a pass but Christianity doesn’t? So, if one were to go back through your posts on this message board, and compare how often you complain about the treatment of Christians in American society, and compared it to how often you compare about the treatment of Christians in, say, China, do you one would find more complaints about the treatment of Christians in America, than in China? And yet, by any conceivable yardstick, Christians are treated _vastly_ better here, then they are over there. This is, of course, completely understandable. You probably don’t know any Christians who live in China. And you probably know lots and lots of Christians who live in America - you might even be one yourself. So the treatment of Christians in America gets more notice from you, despite being objectively better, because it has more of an impact on you personally, or (if you’re not a Christian) people you know. So, all that being said - how many gay people do you think I know personally, who live in Saudi Arabia? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/73 "2015-10-13T23:28:21Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If I may be full of shit a moment longer, permit me to ask also why one never hears anyone on the left champion drilling down and criticizing only the repugnant Christians, conservatives, Republicans and old white guys and giving the good ones a pass? As far as I can tell broad brush condemnation is the order of the day when it comes to these groups. I do. I just don’t bother to get into tiresome conversations with boring idealogues like you about it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/74 "2015-10-13T23:31:46Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > You’re right, people should be more like you, who apologizes so much the board is littered with your apologies so that you can’t help to stumble over them. How nice of you not to rub my face in your superior apologizing skills by not actually linking to any of them; you are truly a master of etiquette. Try harder. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/75 "2015-10-14T00:05:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, if one were to go back through your posts on this message board, and compare how often you complain about the treatment of Christians in American society, and compared it to how often you compare about the treatment of Christians in, say, China, do you one would find more complaints about the treatment of Christians in America, than in China? And yet, by any conceivable yardstick, Christians are treated _vastly_ better here, then they are over there. > > This is, of course, completely understandable. You probably don’t know any Christians who live in China. And you probably know lots and lots of Christians who live in America - you might even be one yourself. So the treatment of Christians in America gets more notice from you, despite being objectively better, because it has more of an impact on you personally, or (if you’re not a Christian) people you know. > > So, all that being said - how many gay people do you think I know personally, who live in Saudi Arabia? I understand your point, that people are more likely to react more strongly to things that hit close to home. But still, given that the left in America is so passionate about issues like homosexuality and misogyny and so full of ire and intolerance even toward those who are benign about those issues, let alone those who are opposed or unconvinced, the logical conclusion seems to me to be that the left would be driven to oppose even harder those who adopt an even harder and often physically punitive approach to women’s rights and homosexuality, even if most proponents of the latter live in countries far away. Unlike my considerable ignorance of the lot of Christians in China, Islamic attitudes toward women (and girls, and female children) and homosexuals are well-known. If I didn’t know better I would have expected that America’s left would be more riled up and in even stronger opposition to Islam and its practices than those of us on the right. I do appreciate the insight however. While I obviously don’t agree with the sentiment at least the question of ‘why’ has been answered to my satisfaction. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/76 "2015-10-14T00:09:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If I may be full of shit a moment longer, permit me to ask also why one never hears anyone on the left champion drilling down and criticizing only the repugnant Christians, conservatives, Republicans and old white guys and giving the good ones a pass? Because [one](http://www.southernequality.org/people-of-faith-speak-out-against-sb2/) [is](http://www.southernequality.org/people-of-faith-speak-out-against-sb2/) [deaf](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thedudeabides/obama-on-faith-the-exclusive-interview/) [as](https://www.au.org/about/people/barry-lynn-0) [a](http://www.pfaw.org/media-center/publications/religious-liberty-shield-or-sword) [fuckin](http://www.forwardprogressives.com/dear-conservatives-millions-christian-liberals-lot-more-like-jesus/) [post](http://www.thechristianleft.org/), would be my guess. Seriously, if you’re so wrapped up in your execrable pseudomartyrdom that you don’t know about the shit-tons of leftists who are **also** Christians–and the shit-tons of atheists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Pagans who are leftists and friends with these Christians–you’re even dumber than I thought, which until now I considered mathematically impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/77 "2015-10-14T00:11:43Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > If I didn’t know better I would have expected that America’s left would be more riled up and in even stronger opposition to Islam and its practices than those of us on the right. Tell you what: whip up frenzy against right-wing Christians such that it’s used as part of a campaign to justify a massive war against another country, and see what leftists do. You might find that when Christians are facing a level of persecution from our government similar to what Muslims are facing, leftists may hesitate to feed into the warmonger’s narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/78 "2015-10-14T00:20:45Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Because [one](http://www.southernequality.org/people-of-faith-speak-out-against-sb2/) [is](http://www.southernequality.org/people-of-faith-speak-out-against-sb2/) [deaf](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thedudeabides/obama-on-faith-the-exclusive-interview/) [as](https://www.au.org/about/people/barry-lynn-0) [a](http://www.pfaw.org/media-center/publications/religious-liberty-shield-or-sword) [fuckin](http://www.forwardprogressives.com/dear-conservatives-millions-christian-liberals-lot-more-like-jesus/) [post](http://www.thechristianleft.org/), would be my guess. Seriously, if you’re so wrapped up in your execrable pseudomartyrdom that you don’t know about the shit-tons of leftists who are **also** Christians–and the shit-tons of atheists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and Pagans who are leftists and friends with these Christians–you’re even dumber than I thought, which until now I considered mathematically impossible. Yes, there are shit-tons of all these people. And they’re largely silent while those of your ilk insult and battle Christianity. I suspect also that among those who don’t join in on the battle to restrict Christianity and its symbols and hide them away behind closed doors, are a considerable number who nonetheless come riding to the defense of Islam whenever the opportunity should arise. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/79 "2015-10-14T00:23:04Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yes, there are shit-tons of all these people. And they’re largely silent while those of your ilk insult and battle Christianity. I suspect also that among those who don’t join in on the battle to restrict Christianity and its symbols and hide them away behind closed doors, are a considerable number who nonetheless come riding to the defense of Islam whenever the opportunity should arise. You’re SO FUCKIN FULL OF SHIT! What do you mean they’re silent? I just cited you figures from the head of my state’s NAACP, to one of the prime movers and shakers in bringing SSM lawsuits in the South, to the president of the United Fucking States of America. And you think that anti-Christian leftists are louder than them? Seriously: **mathematically impossible**. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2015, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476/80 "2015-10-14T00:29:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Tell you what: whip up frenzy against right-wing Christians such that it’s used as part of a campaign to justify a massive war against another country, and see what leftists do. You might find that when Christians are facing a level of persecution from our government similar to what Muslims are facing, leftists may hesitate to feed into the warmonger’s narrative. Ah, so it’s all in service to avoiding a new war? Well then why not just say so, rather than run around accusing everyone who’s rightfully opposed to Islam and its treatment of women and homosexuals of hating brown people being evil bigots? There was much to fear from Communism and there’s much to fear now from Islam, and yet the only foreign ideology the left seems to be able to find it in its heart to revile is Facism. Many, many more people - as in millions and millions and _millions_ - have suffered and died horrible deaths as a result of both Communism and Islam in the last century than ever happened under Facism. So in my opinion if you want to lobby against war, at least do it honestly. Otherwise you just appear mysteriously hypocritical. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramira-so-as-not-to-hijack-the-atmb-thread/734476.md?page=5)