# Ramming speed! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 18, 2001, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923 "2001-07-18T13:25:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/1 "2001-07-18T13:25:48Z")
So I’m watching Babylon 5 last night, it’s the climactic battle for the freedom of Earth, and Sheridan’s ship is the only one close enough to stop the orbital platform from decimating most of the eastern seaboard. Weapons are offline, so he orders “ramming speed.” I also seem to recall Worf in First Contact ordering “ramming speed” while fighting a Borg cube, and in Animal House one of the guys driving the cake yelled “ramming speed!” just before hitting the grandstand. So is there really any such military tactic as “ramming speed”? How fast is “ramming speed”? Does “ramming speed” just mean “get this thing moving as fast as possible before smashing into something”? ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/2 "2001-07-18T13:35:03Z")
This is pure conjecture, but maybe “ramming speed” is the maximum speed at which the ship can survive a collision without critical damage. ---
**Author:** ![sewalk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@sewalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sewalk)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/3 "2001-07-18T13:38:33Z")
In the years before accurate naval gunfire, ramming was a very common tactic. Pre-gunpowder ships used this almost exclusively. Since ramming is most effective when the ram (a pointed device under the waterline, extending from the bow) penetrates as far as possible, “Ramming Speed” describes the maximum speed available. It is not an authentic naval term, per se. The correct term is “Flank Speed” but in an informal situation, “Ramming Speed” may have been used to imply that all available speed is needed as soon as possible. [slight hijack]H.M.S. Dreadnought, the first truly modern warship featuring only rifled large guns, turbine power, and steel armor, sank only one vessel in its career: a WWI German submarine that she rammed. [/slight hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/4 "2001-07-18T13:57:12Z")
I think you need to go farther back to the days of the Roman empire. IIRC their ships had a catapult or two (or siphons) to toss Greek Fire onto enemy ships (Greek Fire was sort of an ancient form of napalm…reportedly it was nasty stuff and no one today knows exactly how it was made). Anyway, attack method #2 was ramming and the Roman ships had a purpose built ram projecting our of the bow at the waterline. It was my understanding that ramming speed came from this time and constituted something more than ‘flank speed’. The ship needed speed to A) Actually hit its target before it moved out of the way and B) Have enough momentum to cave in the side of the enemy ship. Basically it was a call for everyone at the oars to go into major overdrive. Given the level of work involved it could only be maintained for a short while and would probably exhaust their ‘engines’ (the oarsmen). As a result you’d only call for it when you had a good shot at a nearby ship. I guess I should say the Roman ships had a third weapon…Roman soldiers. I believe most ship-to-ship engagements back then were settled in hand-to-hand fighting so Roman warships carried contingents of soldiers just for this purpose. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/5 "2001-07-18T15:07:28Z")
Ramming, catapults, etc. were not really that widely used. A ship with an underwater ram, having rammed another ship would most likely sink with it. Fire catapults make for good movie scenes but I do not believe they were really ever used much. In ancient time sea battles were just land battles fought on ships. Sailors would maneouver the ships to board the enemy ship and soldiers would do the fighting. The ships were kept together with grapple hooks etc. Soldiers and sailors were two very distinct classes. In the battle of Lepanto or Naupaktos (in what is now Greece, 1571) a Christian fleet of a coalition of countries headed and commanded by Spain won a major naval victory over the Turkish fleet. It was strictly in this style. The ships were like floating castles which had to be defended or conquered. The first instance of new naval tactics takes place with the Armada (1587). The Spanish Armada wound its way very slowly along the English coast. The English just did not have the ships or resources to engage in battle with them so they used smaller, more maneouverable, ships to harass the Spanish. They did this for days on end as they were near their bases. They could have breafast at home with the wife, go out to harass the Spaniards during the day, and still be home for dinner in time to watch the news on TV. They did not have great firepower but they could harass the big ships and get away with it. (I believe the main damage cause to the Spanish was that two of their ships collided) At any rate, a new form of naval engagement was born. From there on, it was not considered necessary to board the enemy ship. Just try to sink it, set it on fire, or whatever you can do from a safer distance. This started the English dominance of the seas which was to last to the end of the 19th century. ---
**Author:** ![Lockz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Lockz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lockz)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/6 "2001-07-18T15:48:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole \* > \*\*I think you need to go farther back to the days of the Roman empire. IIRC their ships had a catapult or two (or siphons) to toss Greek Fire onto enemy ships (Greek Fire was sort of an ancient form of napalm…reportedly it was nasty stuff and no one today knows exactly how it was made). > > Anyway, attack method #2 was ramming and the Roman ships had a purpose built ram projecting our of the bow at the waterline. > \*\* This reminds me of my ancient history class. 🙂 These boats you are talking about were Greek, not Roman. A famous battle where this happened happened at (I think!) Piraeus. The Greek trimeres had spurs installed at the bow of their ships so they could effectively ram the opposing Persian ships. And yes, this is where Greek Fire was used. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/7 "2001-07-18T16:30:55Z")
> [@](#): > > _sailor wrote:_ > Ramming, catapults, etc. were not really that widely used. A ship with an underwater ram, having rammed another ship would most likely sink with it. [This](http://cal044202.student.utwente.nl/~marsares/warfare/history/naval.html) site seems to indicate that rams were widely used and to some extent catapults and/or other missile weapons as well (quotes below are taken from the linked site). Note that boarding and fighting hand-to-hand was certainly a big part of naval warfare back then…with or without ramming (the article notes one super-galley that purportedly carried 2,850 soldiers!). > [@](#): > > The principal ship-killing weapon of the ancient world was the ram, which appeared sometime after the catastrophe and before 850 BC. A blunt ramming point was mounted below the waterline on a heavily reinforced bow. Such a ram of bronze, weighing over 1000 pounds, has been recovered from the Mediterranean by Israeli archaeologists. > > The object of naval fighting was to drive the ram into the side or rear of an enemy ship, puncture it, and then pull back, leaving a hole that resulted in the ship sinking.After 300 BC, grappling and boarding once again became important as ships increased greatly in size and became less maneuverable. and… > [@](#): > > During last millennia BC, the oar-powered warships gradually got larger and more powerful, and began mounting fighting towers and catapults on their decks. Although boarding became important once again in the last centuries, warships continued to carry and use rams. > [@](#): > > _Lockz wrote:_ > These boats you are talking about were Greek, not Roman. I think the boats we are talking about were used by pretty much everybody for a LONG time (Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Carpathians, etc.). They may have varied a bit but the overall theme seemed to be the same. The Romans definitely used Greek Fire though… > [@](#): > > Greek Fire was the secret weapon of the Eastern Roman Emperors. It is said to have been invented by a Syrian Engineer, one Callinicus, a refugee from Maalbek, in the seventh century (673 AD). > > Source: [http://www.greece.org/Romiosini/greek\_fire.html](http://www.greece.org/Romiosini/greek_fire.html) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/8 "2001-07-18T16:33:58Z")
_I think the boats we are talking about were used by pretty much everybody for a LONG time (Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Carpathians, etc.)._ Change ‘Carpathians’ to Carthaginians…sorry 'bout that. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/9 "2001-07-18T17:32:30Z")
Ramming speed was not, in fact, the fastest speed available, but rather the fastest speed that you could ram your vessel into another, and expect to still leave your ship in reasonably sound condition. Galleys are moved by muscle power in combat, and as such, are built lightly (muscle wears out quickly under combat conditions!) to facilitate speed and handling. A successful high-speed ramming attack, while being very deadly to it’s victim, risks leaving the rammer with sprung planks, a broken forepost, a damaged keel, or a lost beak (this happened at least once during the American Civil War, IIRC). Worse, a full-on ram attack risks leaving the rammer entangled with it’s victim, which pulls _both_ vessels to the bottom. The tactic was to ram a speed that approaches a fast walk, but to back oars _just_ before impact, puncturing the lightly-built hull of your opponent, but already begining to disengage so that your beak is quickly removed from your opponent’s hull, lest they board you, or more likely, they sink enough to bind-up your beak in the opening and drag you to the bottom with them. Needles to say, this was a hard tactic to achieve. Far easier to run at high speed parallel to your opponent, shipping oars and cutting in close to them at the last moment, to try and catch them before they can ship _their_ oars, thus breaking their oars (the butt ends of which would flail about the oardecks like murderous threshing machines). Meanwhile your archers, slingers, and and other ranged weapons would try and off the opposing command crew, especially the steersman. Fire was (rarely) used, as were large stones, darts (NOT pub darts, but big nasty things!), arrows, spears, slings, and a host of assorted nastyness. Once the opposing vessel was ‘decapitated’, it was easy prey. Meanwhile, the opposing vessel is doing it’s level-best to return all the favors, and then some. You can see why many such contests became infantry fights accross wooden decks. It’s easier to train and pay for good infantry than it is to pay for and train a good navy, and far simpler to just grapple and board than to try fancy tactics (especially late in the fight, when the oarsmen were exhausted). ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/10 "2001-07-18T17:45:39Z")
Three posts in a row in the same thread…I’m having a conversation with myself (wouldn’t be the first time). Anyway, over lunch I had some more thoughts relevant to the OP. I don’t _know_ any of this but I’m speculating based on what I’ve read so far. In the link I posted earlier they mentioned that in ancient times ramming another ship was a tricky business. Too fast and you get stuck, too slow and you may not cave in the side of the enemy ship or, worse, you miss the enemy and very likely shear all the oars off down one side of your boat. Presumably there was a preferred speed for ramming. Not too fast but not too slow either. One would assume their navy would practice and that there would be a defined ‘ramming speed’ they would use when the situation called for it. Upon the call for ramming speed the drummer guy who keeps the oarsmens pace switches to an appropriate beat (maybe a rhumba ;)) and off they go. As for what happens in Babylon 5 or Star Trek I would presume ‘ramming speed’ means something different. In this case they want to effect maximum damage to the enemy and have no illusions about surviving the collision. Flank Speed isn’t the fastest a ship can go. It’s the fastest a ship can go without ruining its engines over time (Cruising Speed being the fastest a ship can move while maintaining things such as fuel efficiency). Ramming Speed, I am guessing, means throw caution to the wind. Bring the reactor up to 200%, screw the inertial dampeners, etc… None of it matters. We want maximum speed as fast as the ship can put it on and it doesn’t matter if doing so kills the whole crew and would destroy the ship in 10 seconds because the ship will strike the other ship in 5 seconds and kill everyone anyway. Just my guess… ---
**Author:** ![Satchmo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/satchmo/32/4223_2.png) [@Satchmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satchmo)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/11 "2001-07-18T21:08:08Z")
I know there’s a great scene in ‘Ben Hur’ aboard a Roman Galley where the Roman ‘Big important guy’ (General?, Senator?, whatever) Orders the various speeds for the rowers and watches Charleton Heston get madder and madder at him. As I recall the only speed faster than ‘ramming speed’ was ‘water skiing’ speed. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![carpoon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bc79bd/32.png) [@carpoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carpoon)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/12 "2001-07-18T22:20:03Z")
Another method which is related to ramming speed is “fire ships”. Older, decrepit ships are - you guessed it - set on fire, and sailed into the opposing force. Works best for relatively immobile targets, such as ships at anchor. I recall something about a good bit of Napoleon’s fleet getting destroyed in this way, when the ships were chained together to prevent running away. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/13 "2001-07-18T22:35:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Satchmo \* > As I recall the only speed faster than ‘ramming speed’ was ‘water skiing’ speed. 🙂 \*\* I believe that LUDICROUS SPEED is actually the fastest a ship can travel. ---
**Author:** ![cmburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@cmburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmburns)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/14 "2001-07-18T22:55:14Z")
If my 8th grade Ancient History book did not lie, then ramming speed was moderate speed up until close to the moment of impact, then a frantic backstroke to keep from wrecking your own ship as well. IIRC, ramming was the “weapon of choice” until one of the Punic Wars. The Romans were great soldiers but only average sailors, while the Carthiginians, being transplanted Phoenicians, had the Mediterranean’s best navy. The Romans packed their ships with soldiers, installed a drawbridge with a big spike on the bow, dropped this on the Carthiginian ship when it got close, and had a boarding party rush over before the other ship could get loose. ---
**Author:** ![cmburns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@cmburns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmburns)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2001, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/15 "2001-07-18T23:12:39Z")
BTW, I’d be willing to bet the “ramming speed” orders in Star Trek and Babylon 5 were influenced by Animal House, not the writer’s idea of military jargon. If you ever see a starship with “Eat Me” written on the side, you’ll know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Psi\_Cop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@Psi\_Cop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psi_Cop)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2001, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/16 "2001-07-19T00:30:41Z")
From the [“Endgame” Guide Page,](http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/086.html) at the Lurker’s Guide to Babylon 5, I quote something that J. Michael Straczynski (writer and producer) said in response to that exact question: > [@](#): > > _What did Sheridan mean by “ramming speed?”_ > You are in a space ship, in a vacuum, heading toward target X. You understand that it takes time to transfer energy and movement toward another plane, so you go at X-speed toward that object if you want the option of applying thrusters and angling away from the object before you slam into it. > > If, on the other hand, you _want_ to hit the object, and you have no interest in holding back your thrusters to allow you to diverge from the target in the amount of space remaining between you and it, you proceed at Y speed, with your thrusters putting out their maximum amount of fuel. > > Y = ramming speed. -Psi Cop ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2001, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/17 "2001-07-19T02:21:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmburns \* > **…a drawbridge with a big spike on the bow…** A [_Corvus_](http://myron.sjsu.edu/romeweb/ROMARMY/art20.htm) ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2001, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/18 "2001-07-19T02:33:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Satchmo \* > > As I recall the only speed faster than ‘ramming speed’ was ‘water skiing’ speed. 🙂 \*\* > > I believe that LUDICROUS SPEED is actually the fastest a ship can travel. \*\* I was an EOOW[sup]1[/sup] on a submarine a few years back. Whenever the guys up forward rang up “flank speed,” we’d either sing out “Ramming speed! Boom-boom-boom-boom” or “Ludicrous Speed! Ludicrous Speed.” 😃 (Yes, we were all bored, short on sleep, and tired of being on watch in the engineroom. Just another day in the Navy!) :rolleyes: [sup]1[/sup][sub]Engineering Officer of the Watch–the officer in charge of the engineroom watch section ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2001, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramming-speed/72923/19 "2001-07-19T03:20:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by robby \* > **Engineering Officer of the Watch–the officer in charge of the engineroom watch section…** By which you mean that you sat in a chair in manuevering and watched while the _real_ Nucs did the work. 😛 [sup]On my last boat we yelled “All Ahead - FORNICATE!”; A tradition that arose after an ‘emergency deep’ manuever when Control had a bit of panic and the OOD said ‘F\*\*K!’ over a live mic, after calling for a flank bell.[/sup]