# Ramones haters - Really? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 15, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328 "2013-08-15T17:28:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/81 "2013-08-24T20:07:19Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Okay; cool - but you probably shouldn’t declare that they weren’t original without knowing a bit more ;). The Ramones - and the emergence of Punk in general - is really fascinating and really well written about. If anyone in this thread hasn’t read **Please Kill Me: An Uncensored Oral History of Punk** , I can’t recommend strongly enough. I was there. They weren’t all that. Just my humble opinion. I just turned 50. I did back flips off the Dead Kennedy’s stage. 🙂 Means nothing, but there you go. Ramones=bleh. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/82 "2013-08-24T20:11:09Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I was there. They weren’t all that. Just my humble opinion. I just turned 50. I did back flips off the Dead Kennedy’s stage. 🙂 > > Means nothing, but there you go. Ramones=bleh. 🙂 Ah, bringing your own baggage - cool; again, YMMV. I’m from SF and yeah, the DK’s, Flipper, etc, were great - but none of their songs have endured in a mainstream way. You may not like them, but damn The Ramones songs have endured. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/83 "2013-08-24T20:14:09Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Ah, bringing your own baggage - cool; again, YMMV. I’m from SF and yeah, the DK’s, Flipper, etc, were great - but none of their songs have endured in a mainstream way. You may not like them, but damn The Ramones songs have endured. LOTS of songs have endured. Who are you, ASCAP? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/84 "2013-08-24T20:22:48Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > LOTS of songs have endured. Who are you, ASCAP? 🙂 You know what I mean - it’s not like \*Too Drunk to Fuck \*gets played at football games or used in commercials. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/85 "2013-08-24T20:48:20Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > You know what I mean - it’s not like \*Too Drunk to Fuck \*gets played at football games or used in commercials. :rolleyes: Usage in football game commercials has always been standard of musical validity. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/86 "2013-08-24T21:28:13Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Usage in football game commercials has always been standard of musical validity. Yep; that’s _exactly_ the point I was making :rolleyes: I’m done. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/87 "2013-08-24T21:58:50Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > You know what I mean - it’s not like \*Too Drunk to Fuck \*gets played at football games or used in commercials. :rolleyes: Jello did accuse the rest of the band of wanting to license _Holiday in Cambodia_ for a Levi’s commercial. If DK has not endured in popular consciousness, it is partly by design. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/88 "2013-08-24T22:12:15Z")
> [@Maeglin](#): > > Jello did accuse the rest of the band of wanting to license _Holiday in Cambodia_ for a Levi’s commercial. If DK has not endured in popular consciousness, it is partly by design. Fair point. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/89 "2013-08-24T22:18:33Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Fair point. I definitely don’t disagree with your general point though, I was just quibbling. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/90 "2013-08-24T22:41:59Z")
One annoying habit I’ve found over the years at the SD is how contrarian people get over film/music/art/cultural stuff. It’s almost a given that if you state something culturally obvious, like how the Ramones were punk-rock innovators, you’ll immediately have someone ready to argue about how that’s _totally_ not the case. Cultural “facts” can be a lot grayer than science/political/historical ones, since how something affects a mass audience – especially something documented ad hoc, as was the case with the NY punk scene – is such a nebulous thing to pin down in a simple message board post, without devolving into a contest of “well I was there” and “I was there _more_.” (And the more well read you are on a subject, the more aggravating it gets, like pretty much any thread on modern art here, where posters argue that Mondrian was a boring painter that accomplished nothing – sense a theme?) Anyway, in this case, **levdrakon** is saying that he’s an authority on the fact that the Ramones were boring and overrated, because he jumped off the Dead Kennedy’s stage… some time in the past. Earlier in the thread, someone posted the quote of Jello’s, where he said DK wouldn’t exist without the Ramones. So doesn’t that follow that **levdrakon** wouldn’t have back flipped off the stage if it weren’t for the Ramone’s…? Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/91 "2013-08-24T23:01:11Z")
You’re missing the fact that the Ramones are irrelevant, except in their fans’ minds. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/92 "2013-08-24T23:23:41Z")
You’re missing the fact that your opinion, based on what seems to be absolutely no knowledge of the genre, isn’t gospel. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/93 "2013-08-24T23:24:55Z")
> [@Labrador\_Deceiver](#): > > You’re missing the fact that your opinion, based on what seems to be absolutely no knowledge of the genre, isn’t gospel. Your knowledge of the genre is entirely of your own imagination. You are welcome to it. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/94 "2013-08-24T23:28:21Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > You’re missing the fact that the Ramones are irrelevant, except in their fans’ minds. Are the Dead Kennedys relevant to you? ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/95 "2013-08-24T23:29:03Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > Are the Dead Kennedys relevant to you? What would that have to do with the Ramones? ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/96 "2013-08-24T23:35:40Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What would that have to do with the Ramones? You hinted that you thought the DKs were relevant, while Ramones aren’t, but the DKs wouldn’t exist without the Ramones. From Jello himself… > [@](#): > > Then punk happened. And I saw the Ramones, early on at a country-rock palace in Denver. They were opening for some record-company band, so the local music establishment, and I emphasize the word “establishment,” was there in force, and the handful of us who knew the Ramones were up in front. And half the fun was, you know, not only were the Ramones the most powerful band I had ever seen at that point, but they made it look so simple–that anyone could do it, hell, even I could do it. This is what I should be doing. Therefore, it’s a simple deductive conclusion: the Ramones and Dead Kennedys are either relevant or irrelevant, but the Dead Kennedys can’t be relevant if the Ramones are irrelevant. To argue otherwise is intellectualy dishonest or being contrarian for the sake of argument – those are your choices. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/97 "2013-08-24T23:53:14Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > You hinted that you thought the DKs were relevant, while Ramones aren’t, but the DKs wouldn’t exist without the Ramones. From Jello himself… > > Therefore, it’s a simple deductive conclusion: the Ramones and Dead Kennedys are either relevant or irrelevant, but the Dead Kennedys can’t be relevant if the Ramones are irrelevant. To argue otherwise is intellectualy dishonest or being contrarian for the sake of argument – those are your choices. Nice. ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/98 "2013-08-25T03:04:26Z")
> [@ZebraShaSha](#): > > You hinted that you thought the DKs were relevant, while Ramones aren’t, but the DKs wouldn’t exist without the Ramones. From Jello himself… > > Therefore, it’s a simple deductive conclusion: the Ramones and Dead Kennedys are either relevant or irrelevant, but the Dead Kennedys can’t be relevant if the Ramones are irrelevant. To argue otherwise is intellectualy dishonest or being contrarian for the sake of argument – those are your choices. Can he choose both? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/99 "2013-08-25T03:06:33Z")
> [@bup](#): > > I love the Ramones. I like Hemingway a lot. I don’t understand why you shut down the whole comparison in the other thread. I don’t understand why you started this thread with the presumption that there’s a lot of Ramones hatred. > > If it weren’t for the Ramones, pop music would still sound like fucking ELO or something. And if it weren’t for Hemingway, writing would have that Edwardian pseudo-intellectual voice like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle. I went back and reread the thread and came across this; don’t know how I missed this. I didn’t mean to be difficult; I just felt that my Ramones reference in the Hem thread was a bit too hijacky. And as for Ramones hatred - yeah, I wasn’t expecting much, but have found this thread pretty interesting… ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328/100 "2013-08-25T15:10:45Z")
I love the Ramones. Seeing them live was the clincher. In a way, there were 2 Ramones: Studio and Live. Studio Ramones was Joey’s, with love songs and surf music influenced songs. Live Ramones was Johnny’s, with furious pacing and volume. True rock and roll heros in my book. (And Lemmy’s: [Motörhead - R.A.M.O.N.E.S. (live music video) - YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJvLyN-yXdY) ) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramones-haters-really/666328.md?page=6)