# Ramsey Clark makes you proud to be a lawyer. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2005, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157 "2005-12-05T11:27:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/81 "2005-12-07T16:11:38Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > The problem is that he is amoral. He is very politically driven and he is no different than Henry Kissinger. Kissinger had no interest whatsoever in human rights if they violated right wing politics. Clark is the same way but with left wing politics. That is what alot of people here are upset about. the fact that people deserve a fair trial doesn’t bother most of us, it is that Clark amorally picks anyone no matter what they’ve done as long as they are/were an enemy of the US or Israels. Clark doesn’t seem to care if he is defending genocide, tyranny or marijuana users as long as it places him at odds with the US government. And this is why I say that Clark isn’t worth getting excited about. The only people who pay any attention to what he says anymore are those who are already enemies of the US. And, I guess, those who become enraged at any criticism of the US by anyone at any time. Everyone else has tuned him out. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/82 "2005-12-07T16:48:12Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Everyone else has tuned him out. I certainly don’t stay up at nights wringing my hands about Clark being a crackpot. However,the three threads started on this board in recent days about Clark are all by people who praise him for being some sort of Mother Theresa of the legal profession. That kind of chatter deserves to be challenged. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/83 "2005-12-08T02:33:29Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > I certainly don’t stay up at nights wringing my hands about Clark being a crackpot. However,the three threads started on this board in recent days about Clark are all by people who praise him for being some sort of Mother Theresa of the legal profession. That kind of chatter deserves to be challenged. Mother Teresa would not be up in the judges’ face Y ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/84 "2005-12-09T16:29:30Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And I’ll ask you directly, **Zoe**. Was it right for Ramsey Clark to go to Tehran and assist the Ayatollah Khomeini’s government in amassing evidence of American “crimes” in Iran, at the same time our hostages were being held there by that same government? > > I’d appreciate an answer. This, **Zoe** is obviously a question you are ducking. Whether it is because you don’t know enough about the incident, or whether you cannot defend Clark here, only you can say. But answering the question at least would be honest. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/85 "2005-12-09T16:57:55Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And I’ll ask you directly, **Zoe**. Was it right for Ramsey Clark to go to Tehran and assist the Ayatollah Khomeini’s government in amassing evidence of American “crimes” in Iran, at the same time our hostages were being held there by that same government? I’ll field that one. No, it wasn’t right, under the circumstances. On the other hand, America’s “crimes” in Iran don’t deserve the quote marks; they were real. Going back to Operation Ajax. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_ajax](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ajax) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/86 "2005-12-09T17:47:08Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > And this is why I say that Clark isn’t worth getting excited about. The only people who pay any attention to what he says anymore are those who are already enemies of the US. And, I guess, those who become enraged at any criticism of the US by anyone at any time. Everyone else has tuned him out. And this is why I say in return that Ann Coulter isn’t worth getting excited about. The only people who pay any attention to what she says anymore are those who are already allies of the US. And, I guess, those who agree with any criticism of the US by anyone at any time. Everyone else has tuned her out. Same with Fred Phelps, right? No one should bother even flaming them. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/87 "2005-12-09T17:51:44Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > So you would agree with where I wrote that the process is the important thing? What would be your response to my follow-up - would you admire Clark equally if he had volunteered to assist in the prosecution of Saddam rather than his defense? In either case he would have volunteered to be part of the same legal system and would be doing his duty to advance his chosen side to the best of his ability. I would have to agree that the process is more important than the role of any one participant. I should probably say that I don’t really “admire” Ramsey Clark one way or the other; before this I’d never really heard of him and I don’t really have any opinions on him one way or the other, so I’m just speaking in general terms. I tend to admire lawyers more for how they do their jobs than what jobs they’re doing, people who fight hard and fight fair. Still, I have to say I do have a special place in my heart for the defense. Say you’re offered a choice of two jobs: on the one hand, as a prosecutor for your state, you can heroically fight to take a depraved child molester off of the street, thereby receiving the accolades of law enforcement and the community. On the other hand, you can defend to the best of your ability the guy accused of being a child molester, who is probably guilty, definitely crazy, and hates everyone in general and you in particular. You’ve got to give a little respect the guy who does the shit job. That’s not to say I respect defense attorneys more than prosecutors; it’s just a different kind of respect. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/88 "2005-12-09T18:38:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I tend to admire lawyers more for how they do their jobs than what jobs they’re doing, people who fight hard and fight fair. Still, I have to say I do have a special place in my heart for the defense. Say you’re offered a choice of two jobs: on the one hand, as a prosecutor for your state, you can heroically fight to take a depraved child molester off of the street, thereby receiving the accolades of law enforcement and the community. On the other hand, you can defend to the best of your ability the guy accused of being a child molester, who is probably guilty, definitely crazy, and hates everyone in general and you in particular. You’ve got to give a little respect the guy who does the shit job. That’s not to say I respect defense attorneys more than prosecutors; it’s just a different kind of respect. I agree completely with the principle that it’s important to give everyone a good defense, even those who are guilty. But I can’t admire any result that frees a depraved child molester or any other criminal. To me that’s just a regretable defect in a system that works overall. I think that’s one reason I couldn’t be a defense lawyer. Suppose I knew about some evidence that pretty much proved my client was guilty of some crime and I also knew a way to have the evidence dismissed from the case. I’d be torn between my duty as a good lawyer to try to get my client found innocent and my duty as a good citizen to keep a criminal off the streets. To me being a defense lawyer would seem like being a scientists working in a germ warfare lab. I wouldn’t want the burden of knowing that the better I did my job, the worst the damage was for society. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/89 "2005-12-09T19:24:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And this is why I say in return that Ann Coulter isn’t worth getting excited about. The only people who pay any attention to what she says anymore are those who are already allies of the US. And, I guess, those who agree with any criticism of the US by anyone at any time. Everyone else has tuned her out. > > Same with Fred Phelps, right? No one should bother even flaming them. > > Regards, > Shodan I don’t get excited about Ann Coulter, or Rush, or Bill O’Reilly or much of anyone like that. I listen to Jon Stewart, Bill Maher, _et al_ because they are funny and not so much for political commentary. I do get a little agitated at people who have the power to do something useful but invade Iraq instead. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/90 "2005-12-09T19:52:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ll field that one. No, it wasn’t right, under the circumstances. I’ll certainly agree with you there. Would you consider Clark’s actions nearly treasonous, or just incredibly stupid? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/91 "2005-12-09T20:08:18Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I’ll certainly agree with you there. > > Would you consider Clark’s actions nearly treasonous, or just incredibly stupid? Well, not “treasonous” – it can never be “treasonous” to point out when your own country is in the wrong, not in any circumstances; and **before** the Islamic Revolution, the U.S., in its relations with Iran, was always and entirely in the wrong. As for “stupid” – that depends on what Clark hoped to accomplish by his actions. Probably, “stupid.” ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/92 "2005-12-10T05:13:00Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > I would have to agree that the process is more important than the role of any one participant. I should probably say that I don’t really “admire” Ramsey Clark one way or the other; before this I’d never really heard of him and I don’t really have any opinions on him one way or the other, so I’m just speaking in general terms. > > I tend to admire lawyers more for how they do their jobs than what jobs they’re doing, people who fight hard and fight fair. Still, I have to say I do have a special place in my heart for the defense. Say you’re offered a choice of two jobs: on the one hand, as a prosecutor for your state, you can heroically fight to take a depraved child molester off of the street, thereby receiving the accolades of law enforcement and the community. On the other hand, you can defend to the best of your ability the guy accused of being a child molester, who is probably guilty, definitely crazy, and hates everyone in general and you in particular. You’ve got to give a little respect the guy who does the shit job. That’s not to say I respect defense attorneys more than prosecutors; it’s just a different kind of respect. There’s a subtext herethat I was trying to implicate (unsuccessfully) What I admire about Clark is that once he tells you (you being, saddam) that he will represent you,(let’s pause and contemplate all of the memes the word "represent’ has to carry) once he SAYS he wll represent you, he doesn’t hold back, or second guss how the world really would be better with you off the streets. Now you contemplate that moral conunundrum, and you make theother honest decision–I won’t be a criminal defense lawyer because I would be ambivalet. The problem is that lots of defense counsel are ambivalent, but they take the case nonetheless. Those are the ones likely t sell out an inocent client in the mix … ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/93 "2005-12-10T06:15:32Z")
> [@](#): > > What I admire about Clark is that once he tells you (you being, saddam) that he will represent you,(let’s pause and contemplate all of the memes the word "represent’ has to carry) once he SAYS he wll represent you, he doesn’t hold back, or second guss how the world really would be better with you off the streets. In other words, Clark charges ahead without ever considering the morality or even the consequences of his actions and he never looks back to reconsider any decision he’s made. I think we’ve already had too much of this form of stupidity in Iraq and we don’t need Clark added his share. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/94 "2005-12-10T06:46:16Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I know that you comment wasn’t addressed to me, but I do agree with you. It is the process that is important. Either side earns my respect. But I am amazed at the number of people who do not want Saddam to have decent representation. They don’t seem to understand or appreciate the justice system. OK. I’ve read it all and I have the answer to Saddam being on trial. ( **Zoe** , I picked your post to quote as it was the first I found that caught my eye for this. You’re just so damn hot!) 🆒 Here’s what we do. It appeases those wanting Hussein to face harsh justice, and appeases those…umm. This is tough. Those that support him? Those that hate America? Stalinists? BTW, > [@alaricthegoth](#): > > Not even STALIN is a stalinist anymore… Then what the hell is he? Other than dust with 20 million corpse-dust trailing him? His spirit lives in you from what I’ve seen. Anyway, here’s the plan. And this should make eveyone happy. Saddam is a flight risk. He has to be held without bail. Now we just need to hold trial for everyone he’s arbitrarily convicted to see if they had fair trials. Then hold new trials for all those convicted and sentenced to death under his rule. Let’s make sure they had fair trials before being too concerned about his defense in crimes he’s admitted to comitting. Sound fair? I hope so. Those calling for a full, impartial and fair defense should be able to get behind that idea. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/95 "2005-12-10T15:18:28Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > In other words, Clark charges ahead without ever considering the morality or even the consequences of his actions and he never looks back to reconsider any decision he’s made. I think we’ve already had too much of this form of stupidity in Iraq and we don’t need Clark added his share. Prosecutor do this regularly, hence the large number of people in Illinois, for example, who were cleared by DNA of the crimes for which they were convicted. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/96 "2005-12-11T03:19:31Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > OK. I’ve read it all and I have the answer to Saddam being on trial. ( **Zoe** , : > His spirit lives in you from what I’ve seen. > > . Sir! Bite your tongue. Have I not said I am a trotskyite, to whom there is perhaps no deeper wound than to be mis-named a Stalinist (except maybe a pusilanimous menshevik…) ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2006, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157/97 "2006-01-14T20:16:21Z")
> **[Breaking International News & Views](https://www.reuters.com)** BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The chief judge in the trial of Saddam Hussein has tendered his resignation in protest at pressure from the Iraqi government on himself and the court, a source close to the judge told Reuters on Saturday. Rizgar Amin would make me proud to be a judge (if I were) This “backstory” illustrates the importance of having a defense counsel who dos not “lay down and die” in court. When the apparatus of the state is arrayed in pursuit of the destruction of an individual, you want someone in court who will point out that butcher has his thumb on the scale, (to scramble metaphors…) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-makes-you-proud-to-be-a-lawyer/334157.md?page=4)