# Ramsey Clark--Supporter of Saddam?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 28, 2005, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026 "2005-11-28T06:19:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![rippingtons\_fan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rippingtons_fan/32/11767_2.png) [@rippingtons\_fan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rippingtons_fan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/1 "2005-11-28T06:19:29Z")
Is Ramsey Clark a supporter of Sadam Hussein (as he has seemed to have joined Saddam Hussein’s defence team?) ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Who](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Doctor\_Who](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Who)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/2 "2005-11-28T06:21:03Z")
> [@rippingtons\_fan](#): > > Is Ramsey Clark a supporter of Sadam Hussein (as he has seemed to have joined > Saddam Hussein’s defence team?) Lawyer = Supporter? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Dishfunctional](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/35a633/32.png) [@Dishfunctional](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dishfunctional)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/3 "2005-11-28T07:28:59Z")
> [@PeterWiggen](#): > > Lawyer = Supporter? 😕 Maybe the OP meant “advocate”… in the legal sense, of course. To which I would say, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Wake\_up\_call](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dec6dc/32.png) [@Wake\_up\_call](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wake_up_call)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/4 "2005-11-28T07:52:41Z")
According to [Aljazeera](http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_id=9804), the very Iraqis who suffered imprisonment and torture under Saddam, are now saying the country was better off under him. Even [a US Senator](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1086691/posts)says that the Iraqi women were better off under saddam. Given the fact that the White House is keeping the Truth hidden in secrecy, brainwashing the American public through collusion with the mainstream media, maybe it is a good thing that Ramsey Clark would get in the act and expose all the lies and deceptions that still has 37% of Americans supporting this treasonous administration lying to the public as to why we invaded Iraq at the first place. Go Ramsey, Go … and let the truth prevail. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/5 "2005-11-28T08:04:08Z")
Tell you what - you go poll the Iraqi people, and ask them how many would like Saddam back. As for Ramsey Clarke, he’s an obnoxious Stalinist, so it’s not surprising that he’s got a fondness for dictators. He and George Galloway are two birds of a feather. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2005, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/6 "2005-11-28T08:08:18Z")
You can defend someone like Saddam without being a supporter of his, if you just really believe in the concept of a fair justice system and a fair trial. However Ramsey Clark actually does probably support Saddam Hussein the dictator. Ramsey Clark takes anti-americanism to the next level by being someone who has actively supperted _real_ enemies of America for the last thirty years. ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/7 "2005-11-29T19:15:49Z")
Ramsey Clark is a believer that every person has the right to a fair trial. You look at his past and you will see that. In addition, he like his father before him, served America in a number of different capacities. Is he a “supporter” of Suddam? No, I don’t believe he is, as a matter of fact, I would be willing to bet that he would have defended any number of people in Saddam’s “trials” while Saddam was in power against those very abuses that he now hopes to defend. He is one of those guys who feels everybody deserves a fair shake. In some people’s minds that probably makes him anti-American, a “Stalinist” and the like. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/8 "2005-11-29T20:21:25Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Tell you what - you go poll the Iraqi people, and ask them how many would like Saddam back. Did you state that as yet another mere article of faith, or do you really not suspect it’s been done? Google is your friend.[Cite](http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=10&categ_id=5&article_id=15179): > [@](#): > > To begin, we asked Iraqis to reflect on the fall of Saddam Hussein: Was Iraq better off without him? Among Sunnis, only 23 percent thought so. Among Shiites, however, 87 percent saw a better Iraq without Saddam. Kurds exceeded this number, with 95 percent claiming an improvement. Shouldn’t be a surprise. [Similar-vintage story, from last April](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-gallup-iraq-findings.htm): > [@](#): > > Taking everything into account, do you think the coalition invasion of Iraq has done more harm than good or more good than harm? > > ``` > Total Baghdad Shi’ite areas Sunni areas Kurdish areas > > ``` > > More harm 46 59 47 56 2 > More good 33 18 28 20 97 > The same 16 21 19 16 1 The Sunnis think they’re worse off too, in this one. Plenty more where those came from. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/9 "2005-11-29T20:47:27Z")
> [@TV time](#): > > …that probably makes him anti-American, a “Stalinist” and the like. No; that in combination with his working for the Branch Davidians, the Iranian “Crimes Of America” conference, the PLO, and Yugoslavian War Criminals kind of makes him anti-American. The fact that many of the “peace organizations” he worked for were created by the World Workers’ Party, and many of them were anti-American yet pro-Castro and pro-North Korea, is what makes him a Stalinist. Ramsey Clark has been a constant voice calling the United States evil and Communist dictators wonderful for the last thirty years. John Murtha is an American hero and an anti-war activist; Ramsey Clark is a Stalinist tool. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/10 "2005-11-29T20:54:25Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > As for Ramsey Clarke, he’s an obnoxious Stalinist . . . :dubious: Cite? Argument? Anything more informative/meaningful than a couple of snarl-words? From the Wikipedia – : > [@](#): > > Clark served as Attorney General until Johnson’s term as President ended on January 20, 1969. > > Clark played an important role in the history of the American Civil Rights movement. During his years at the Justice Department, he > > supervised the federal presence at Ole Miss during the week following the admission of James Meredith; > > surveyed all school districts in the South desegregating under court order (1963); > > supervised federal enforcement of the court order protecting the march from Selma to Montgomery; and > > headed the Presidential task force to Watts following the riots. > > supervised the drafting and executive role in passage of the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and Civil Rights Act of 1968. > > As Attorney General, Clark also opposed the government’s use of wiretaps. > > As Attorney General during some of the Vietnam War, Clark oversaw the prosecution of the Boston Five for “conspiracy to aid and abet draft resistance.” Four of the five were convicted, including fellow winner of the Gandhi Peace Award pediatrician Dr. Benjamin Spock and Yale chaplain William Sloane Coffin Jr. (who would later officiate at the wedding of Clark’s son). Clark believed since Coffin and Dr. Spock were respected, if controversial, public figures who could afford legal counsel to fight back for them, their cases would take a long time and would “focus attention on the problems of the draft.” Clark says that he hoped to show Johnson that opposition to the war wasn’t limited to “draft-dodging longhairs” but included the most admired pediatrician in America, a prominent and revered patrician minister, and a respected former Kennedy Administration official (Marcus Raskin, who had been a special staff member on the National Security Council). Nope, nothing “Stalinist” there – in fact, it is a record highly to Clark’s credit in each and every particular. Continuing to his post-AG work: > [@](#): > > Following his term he worked as a law professor and was active in the anti-Vietnam War movement. He visited North Vietnam in 1972. In 1974 he was the Democratic Party’s candidate for the United States Senate from New York, losing to Jacob Javits. > > More recently, Clark has become notorious for his outspoken political views. He has also provided legal counsel and advice to controversial figures in conflict with Western governments, including: > > NORML Advisory Board during late 1970s and early 1980s > > Branch Davidian leader David Koresh > > Antiwar activist Father Philip Berrigan > > American Indian prisoner Leonard Peltier > > Crimes of America conference in Teheran in 1980 > > Liberian political figure Charles Taylor during his 1985 fight against extradition from the United States to Liberia > > Elizaphan Ntakirutimana, a leader of the Rwandan genocide > > PLO leaders in a lawsuit brought by the family of Leon Klinghoffer, the wheelchair bound elderly tourist who was shot and tossed overboard from the hijacked Achille Lauro cruise ship by Palestinian terrorists in 1986 > > Camilo Mejia, a US soldier who deserted his post in March 2004, claiming he did not want any part of an “oil-driven war” > > Radovan Karadzic, of Yugoslavia and accused war criminal > > Counsel to Slobodan Milosevic, former President of Yugoslavia, accused war criminal > > Saddam Hussein, former president of Iraq and accused war criminal > > In December 2004, Clark went to Iraq to try to join the legal team defending Saddam Hussein before the Iraqi Special Tribunal, and now acts as an advisor to Hussein’s legal team. Clark returned to Iraq in late November 2005 to assist and draw publicity for Hussein’s defense and the anti-war movement and was admitted to join Saddam Hussein’s defense team as adviser on November 27, 2005. > > Clark is affiliated with VoteToImpeach, an organization advocating the impeachment of President George W. Bush. He has been an opponent of both Gulf Wars. He is the founder of the International Action Center, which has much overlapping membership with the Workers’ World Party. Clark and the IAC helped found the protest organization ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism). Now, Clark has chosen to represent some rather unsavory figures, but so did F. Lee Bailey and nobody ever called him a traitor. It’s called practicing criminal law, look it up. Nothing there makes Clark a “Stalinist” – not even the possible indirect association with the Workers World Party ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers’\_World\_Party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_World_Party)), which is Trotskyist (a distinction you might not recognize as important, but trust me, that’s like calling a Baptist a Catholic). Galloway is no Stalinist either, by the way. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Corrado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a88e4f/32.png) [@John\_Corrado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Corrado)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/11 "2005-11-29T20:58:59Z")
Good article on Ramsey Clark from Salon:[_Ramsey Clark, the War Criminal’s Best Friend_](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/06/21/clark/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/12 "2005-11-29T21:13:12Z")
> [@John Corrado](#): > > John Murtha is an American hero and an anti-war activist; Ramsey Clark is a Stalinist tool. 😛😛😛 “Tool,” now! And what particular Stalinist state wields this tool, pray tell? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/13 "2005-11-29T21:24:39Z")
> [@Wake up call](#): > > Given the fact that the White House is keeping the Truth hidden in secrecy, brainwashing the American public through collusion with the mainstream media, maybe it is a good thing that Ramsey Clark would get in the act and expose all the lies and deceptions that still has 37% of Americans supporting this treasonous administration lying to the public as to why we invaded Iraq at the first place. Go Ramsey, Go … and let the truth prevail. What truth do you expect to prevail-- that Saddam is innocent? Remember, this is Saddam’s trial, not Bush’s. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/14 "2005-11-29T21:36:24Z")
Bush’s trial comes later. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/15 "2005-11-29T21:45:58Z")
Ramsey Clark! Ah, it gladdens the heart to hear his name again, if only for the furious rage he elicits amongst the tighty righty! They froth, they gibber, they roll about on the floor, all over this one, rather insignificant little man. His very name fills venom sacs to brimming amongst the right, the left… pained bemusement, not much else. He is almost the impossible being, the fanatic liberal. He believes, and I agree, that anyone, no matter how monstrous, deserves a day in court with as full and competent a defense as can be mustered. Why? Because this is the only way we can be sure that we are trying a monster, and not trying someone we have been _told_ is a monster. It is a worthy distinction. I have no doubt Saddam is guilty, I have next to no doubt that Mr. Clark agrees. His point is well taken: if we are so sure, we have nothing whatever to fear from a completely free and open trial, with all legal niceties observed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/16 "2005-11-29T21:47:49Z")
> [@vibrotronica](#): > > Bush’s trial comes later. Only if later = never. Otherwise, how much would you like to bet? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/17 "2005-11-29T21:51:52Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Only if later = never. Otherwise, how much would you like to bet? “Gracious! Who are those poor shivering waifs, stumbling through the snow with their feet wrapped in rags, thier lunch pails filled with week old boloney and stale Ho-Ho’s?” “Ah, the **Mace** children! A sad story, perhaps you heard? Their father offered a million to one odds, and, well, you know the rest…” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/18 "2005-11-29T21:56:34Z")
Who said anything about odds? The way idiocy is bandied about around here, the MaceMunchkins would be wearing nothing but handmade Italian footwear if people would just put their money where their mouths are. BTW, I agree that Saddam needs a defense team, and we need to have a trial I don’t think that is so much in question. One wonders about an American, though, who would rush across the globe to defend a tyrant. Are there no Iraqi lawyers of his caliber? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/19 "2005-11-29T22:09:00Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > …One wonders about an American, though, who would rush across the globe to defend a tyrant. Are there no Iraqi lawyers of his caliber? He’s not defending a man, so much as a principle. A principle we both hold dear, if I understand you correctly. As to Iraqis of his caliber…he can come home, and they have to live there. Besides, what advantage does an Iraqi have? Iraqi law, at this point, is pretty much whatever we say it is. Is Musharaff any more the legitimate ruler of Pakistan than Saddam was of Iraq? He is on trial because he lost, he is tried by us because we won. (I trust the MaceMunchkins are well cared for, never doubted it. After all, if one cannot trust the cool analytical judgement of a libertarian, well, what standards can we have faith in, at all?) ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026/20 "2005-11-29T22:29:18Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > One wonders about an American, though, who would rush across the globe to defend a tyrant. Why would you wonder? He’s simply defending one of the principles that the founding fathers fought for: that everyone deserves a defence, no matter how despicable. That’s why they wrote it into the [Constitution](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment06/): they, better than anyone, understood the passions that can be aroused during times of great civil unrest and war. In the context of the Sixth Amendment, this situation is very much the equivalent to the famous quotation attributed to Voltaire and used in First Amendment discussions: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Under the Sixth Amendment, a lawyer may disagree with the client’s actions, but will do everything possible to ensure a fair and vigourous defence, not a Soviet-style show trial. By offering his services, Clark is supporting the principles of the Constitution of the United States, and also demonstrating the commitment of the United States itself to the rule of law for all. For those who are tossing the “Stalinist” label around, I would submit that Clark is acting exactly contrary to how Stalin ran his show trials, where the defence counsel were bumbling stooges for the government. He’s doing his part to ensure that the government will have to prove its case in open court, fairly and according to law. > [@John Mace](#): > > Are there no Iraqi lawyers of his caliber? No, there aren’t, for two reasons. First, as the President keeps reminding us, Iraq has been a dictatorship for decades. No matter how good the individual members of the Iraqi bar may be, they simply cannot have the tradition of an independent, vigourous bar, used to opposing authority on a regular basis in court. Lawyers who did that during the Saddam period tended not to practise for long, I would assume. If you accept that the US needs to be there to help them build a civil society, based on democracy, constitutionalism and the rule of law, then having lawyers come in to help the Iraqi bar learn their new function, of defending the individual against the state, is just as important as training the Iraqi police and army and subordinating them to the new civil authority. As the US founding fathers knew, an independent bar is a cornerstone of a flourishing civil society. And second, this isn’t the trial of some petty crook. It’s the trial of a former head of state, put on trial by the victors in an international conflict. It’s being watched like no other trial at the moment, and carries great political significance. Ramsey Clark is a former Attorney General of the United States. On the international stage, there aren’t many lawyers who carry that kind of reputation - a reputation that Mr. Clark is putting into play to ensure a fair trial for an accused, put on trial by the victors. If the US and new Iraqi government are confident in their case, and they want to avoid accusations of “victors’ justice”, then they should want Saddam to have the most star-studded defence team possible. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ramsey-clark-supporter-of-saddam/333026.md?page=2)