# Rand Rover: Ass **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055 "2009-03-02T20:33:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/181 "2009-03-04T00:19:22Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well said. > > Guin, you are now on my triple-secret ignore list. That’s where I tell you I am ignoring you but I don’t really put you on my ignore list and I tell you that too leaving you so confused that your little pointy head asplodes. My heart is breaking. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/182 "2009-03-04T00:29:42Z")
Do I detect a faint note of sarcasm? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/183 "2009-03-04T00:59:55Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Although I don’t really give a shit if you guys believe me, if anyone can come up with a “tax lawyer test” I’ll take it. NB: i work on deals and don’t do returns, so no questions about home ofice deductions etc., ypou should instead ask about reorgs and 338(h)(10)s and fund structures and FIRPTA etc. OK, I have a tax law test for you. Suppose a foreign corporation hires a c-suite employee who’s based in the US. Does this structure cause a PE to be formed? If so, is the PE subject to 482? If the employee is performing shareholder activities, and the PE does exist, give me a formula for calculating the income attributable to the PE (just basic formula, assume x% of activities are shareholder, y% direct benefit, services markup is z%) Have fun, Mr. tax lawyer guy. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/184 "2009-03-04T01:15:08Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > OK, I have a tax law test for you. Suppose a foreign corporation hires a c-suite employee who’s based in the US. Does this structure cause a PE to be formed? If so, is the PE subject to 482? If the employee is performing shareholder activities, and the PE does exist, give me a formula for calculating the income attributable to the PE (just basic formula, assume x% of activities are shareholder, y% direct benefit, services markup is z%) > > Have fun, Mr. tax lawyer guy. You don’t understand, he doesn’t do those taxes. No matter what question you ask, he works in a different field. ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/185 "2009-03-04T01:17:03Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > So he apparently has had no window of opportunity. > [@tdn](#): > > He is sort of a pane. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > :_eyes **tdn** _ > > That’s quite enough of your vitreous humor. Come on now guys, this is getting a bit viscous. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Weird\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@The\_Weird\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Weird_One)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/186 "2009-03-04T01:42:38Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > Come on now guys, this is getting a bit viscous. Oh, stop your protesting, we all see right through you. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/187 "2009-03-04T01:43:02Z")
I’m not quite sure how this thread devolved into an evaluation of **Rand Rover** ’s ability as a tax lawyer. He could be the greatest tax lawyer ever to draw breath, and it wouldn’t change the fact that he’s a raging asshole. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/188 "2009-03-04T01:53:59Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I have yet to read one post of his where he actually contributes something to the boards. Normally he reads like a great gapping ass that would give even GOATSE pause, but the hovercraft idea was pretty cool. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/189 "2009-03-04T01:56:53Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I’m not sure what your point is exactly. You act like every employer implements a hhiring freeze in all departments at the same time. People that are in high demand are alwyas in higher demand, even if overall demand is low. And before I had tax experience I had other kickass resume stuff like law review and order of the coif. OMG, you’re right. People with great grades from top law schools would never, ever find their [Big Law future employer had rescinded their job offer](http://abajournal.com/news/akin_gump_among_the_firms_rescinding_job_offers_to_2ls/). How could such a thing _ever_ happen to someone intelligent, hardworking, and, by objective measures, superior to their peers? Inconceivable. ---
**Author:** ![arseNal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@arseNal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/arseNal)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/190 "2009-03-04T01:57:13Z")
> [@anu-la1979](#): > > I gave him about 7 links about this and how weird it is to be self-congratulatory about being a lawyer right now and he waved it off with a “we tax lawyers aren’t getting fired” assertion (completely unsupported). He also didn’t understand the point that there are scores of newly graduated attorneys competing for a limited number of jobs, so the whole “if only you were as educated as I am, you wouldn’t be competing against 2000 other people” line is just REALLY REALLY REALLY stupid coming from a lawyer. Not only that, but in this global economy, we have **radiology** work being outsourced to India. There is even a thriving medical tourism trade where people find that it’s worth it to fly over to other countries to have expensive procedures done for a fraction of the cost. Are we to criticize american doctors for not making the right life decisions and getting a completely bulletproof job? The fact of the matter is, there are precious few professions that are totally immune such that such an astouding level of self-confidence is quite so warranted. IMHO tax law isn’t one of them either. We already have guys in other countries doing personal income tax returns; it’s only a matter of time before they can reliably do more advanced work as well. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/191 "2009-03-04T02:05:01Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I wouldn’t say it’s ridiculous. If there is any lesson to be learned from Rand’s teachings it is that no one owes you anything. I don’t think a purely Objectivist society could function properly. Rand doesn’t really mention how the schools and roads get paid for in the world of Atlas Shrugged. But I do think too many people have a sense of entitlement about what the world owes them. That comes of living in a society in which we are given rights. The Constitution essentially states that the government does owe the people. What people forget is TANSTAAFL. That’s where Ayn Rand’s philosophy breaks down as you said. In order to pay for the protection of those rights we pay taxes. The cost of being part of a civilization. I have this discussion from time to time with a friend of mine who is retired military. He is certain that Rand was 100% right and that no one is “entitled” to anything. When asked, his stance is that if he needs social services he will pay for them at that time. I always ask him the same thing. “In your Ayn Rand world, what would you be doing for a living?” He says nothing, he is retired. I remind him that his retirement check is from taxpayer money and he is doing nothing to earn that. Just like RandRover he sees himself as an exception to that rule even though he clearly isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/192 "2009-03-04T02:24:12Z")
My father just had to take a pay cut at work-as for looking for a new job, he’d be insane. He manages his own funeral home (well, it’s corporate owned). I remember the time he was laid off because his boss was a crook. Right after my family had bought a new house, too. (He found a new job within the next year, fortunately). Personally, I’d rather have had my father, a mortician, who didn’t make as much money, but who was home more often, than a son of a bitch like **Rand Rover** , whose daughter probably won’t see her dad nearly as much. Oh, and MY father sent ME to Catholic school as well. Not by working his ass off so much that I didn’t see him-but because my parents sacrificed a lot of luxuries, like vacations and fancy stuff we didn’t need. But oh right-you’re not supposed to give up things for other people! (But at least I can brag that my dad works with dead people. Rather than TAXES) ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/193 "2009-03-04T02:37:26Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > OK, I have a tax law test for you. Suppose a foreign corporation hires a c-suite employee who’s based in the US. Does this structure cause a PE to be formed? If so, is the PE subject to 482? If the employee is performing shareholder activities, and the PE does exist, give me a formula for calculating the income attributable to the PE (just basic formula, assume x% of activities are shareholder, y% direct benefit, services markup is z%) > > Have fun, Mr. tax lawyer guy. Well, as Captain Carrot predicted (but for the wrong reason), this isn’t my area, but I’ll give ‘er the ol’ college try. Of course, with my excellent research, analytical, and writing skills, I could whip up a memo fully covering this in a couple of hours, but I won’t do tha now because it would be cheating (and I don’t have your address for the bill). First, I don’t know what a “c-suite” employee is, so if that adds some nuance then no points there for me. Second, having an employee that performs services in the US both (i) causes the foreign corp to be engaged in a trade or business in the US (so that its us source income is sunject to tax under the rules in the code) and (ii) generally causes the foreign corp to have a PE in the us (so that the treaty with the foreign corp’s residence country is no bar to taxing the foreign corp on its us source income). Third, the purpose of 482 is to insure that controlled entities allocate payments among themselves in an arm’s length manner so that the income of each entity is clearly reflected. So, for example, if the foreign corp pays lower tax in its resident country, it would want to say that as little income as possible is earned through the employee’s activities in the us. Fourth, now here is where the train runs off the tracks. Im sure the voluminous 482 regs provide rules on how to allocate costs to the employee, calculate the markup, determine the amount of time spent doing shareholder activities, etc ad nauseum, but I’ve never been exposed to those regs so I dob’t know the rules. How it should work is that only the business acities (and not the SH activities) count, and the markup must be reasonable in the industry. So, how’d I do? Also, my thumbs hurt like hell right now (any suggestions for where I can stick them)? ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/194 "2009-03-04T02:41:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Do I detect a faint note of sarcasm? The waff just knocked over my pet skunk. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/195 "2009-03-04T02:47:22Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I’m not quite sure how this thread devolved into an evaluation of **Rand Rover** ’s ability as a tax lawyer. > > He could be the greatest tax lawyer ever to draw breath, and it wouldn’t change the fact that he’s a raging asshole. He’s also economically depraved. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/196 "2009-03-04T02:47:23Z")
> [@](#): > > …any suggestions for where I can stick them) We regret to announce the sudden death of Lightnin’, the SDMB’s primary impulse power hamster. At approximately 8:38 pm, an unprecedented deluge of posts were directed to this thread by modem, DSL, wifi, T1, and people shrieking into telephones. This caused Lightnin’s wheel to spin at approx. 123,000 rpm. Lightnln’ was flung into the cage wall with such force, he was reduced to a somewhat fuzzy, slightly crunchty, oleaginous goo. He will be missed. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/197 "2009-03-04T02:50:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You may be the first man ever to lie upon his deathbed wishing he had spent more time at the office. Or, perhaps, the second fictional character- the first having been Montgomery Burns. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/198 "2009-03-04T03:16:06Z")
Rand Rover, you are an embarassment to the legal profession, and a sorry excuse for a human being. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/199 "2009-03-04T03:24:13Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, as Captain Carrot predicted (but for the wrong reason), this isn’t my area, but I’ll give ‘er the ol’ college try. [. . .] So, how’d I do? Well, as you know your answer wasn’t very good, and was wrong in parts, but given that it wasn’t your area of expertise you demonstrated enough knowledge of tax code that you probably really are a tax lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2009, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/200 "2009-03-04T03:27:51Z")
Son, you need to spend a lot more time fishing. Take a friend. Hell, take 'em both! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055.md?page=11)