# Rand Rover: Ass **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055 "2009-03-02T20:33:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/141 "2009-03-03T17:23:37Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Thanks for contributing to the constructive portion of this thread. Like you, I also enjoy other aspects of the SDMB besides the pit, so maybe I will try to concentrate on those. Maybe the new pit rules will be good for me (but so far it’s just prompted me to think of more creative insults). > > I very much know I don’t make business decisions, and I have no interest in doing so. I make money whether the deal is ultimately successful or not. Sure I make less than the bankers, fund people, etc when the economy’s rolling, but many of them are in the shitter now while I’m still working. That’s cool - and certainly during these very scary, very troubled, very complex times, you have a lot to be thankful for in terms of your position. But these times won’t last forever. And if you consider yourself intelligent, a winner, a go-getter, whatever – and you clearly do – then by the time you get to be a bit older (I would peg you at your early 30’s from your posts - sorry if I have that wrong), you have to look in the mirror and what you’ve accomplished. And sure you’ve provided for your family, but, at some level, you prostituted yourself to do it. Don’t get me wrong - we ALL do - heck, I was a management consultant for over a decade, so I was right beside you at the Prostitution Trough™. But I stepped away as my values changed. All I am saying is: making big, cocky pronouncements about how you’re all set and folks who made bad choices must suffer is typically not a good strategy over the long run - karma is a bitch. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/142 "2009-03-03T18:11:35Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Seriously? Dude, it’s Ayn Rand. I’ve never met a grown person who takes Ayn Rand seriously. It’s thousands of pages of adolescent aggrandizment fantasy. Come to Texas. A large number of grown people have convinced themselves that it’s because we’ve moved so far away from Rand’s philosophy that our economy’s in the shitter rather than the fact that we have tried to implement all her ideas and it failed miserably. Libertarianism fits well with the Texas mind set so most of us forget that Rand’s work was not only fiction it is now completely anachronistic. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/143 "2009-03-03T18:27:22Z")
> [@Syntropy](#): > > Come to Texas. A large number of grown people have convinced themselves that it’s because we’ve moved so far away from Rand’s philosophy that our economy’s in the shitter rather than the fact that we have tried to implement all her ideas and it failed miserably. Libertarianism fits well with the Texas mind set so most of us forget that Rand’s work was not only fiction it is now completely anachronistic. Really? I know less about Rand than I wish I didn’t, but isn’t hers a remarkably atheistic philosophy? That fits in with Texas? ---
**Author:** ![Bambro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df705f/32.png) [@Bambro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambro)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/144 "2009-03-03T18:40:18Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > That fits in with Texas? No ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/145 "2009-03-03T18:53:57Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Really? I know less about Rand than I wish I didn’t, but isn’t hers a remarkably atheistic philosophy? That fits in with Texas? Atheism is not well represented here but her religious views aren’t what is most admired about her. I doubt most of the people here who espouse her philosophy as it applies to politics and public policy hold her atheism against her. Religion is big here but so is business. There is something seductive about The Virtue of Selfishness. Many here ascribe to the idea that large companies will do what is in their own best interest in the long run and investing in their workers if only the government would get out of big business and let the market handle itself. I had an argument this weekend in which I had to remind people that if the government didn’t get involved we would not have child labor laws. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/146 "2009-03-03T18:57:17Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Really? I know less about Rand than I wish I didn’t, but isn’t hers a remarkably atheistic philosophy? That fits in with Texas? I would say that parts of it fit Texas quite well, but not the godless part. People seem to take what they like from Rand’s books. I imagine that the libertarian and meritocratic ideas in Atlas Shrugged would appeal to what I know of how many Texans view themselves. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/147 "2009-03-03T19:01:02Z")
Thanks for the 411. Hmm, cherry picking a philosophy. Can you imagine? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/148 "2009-03-03T19:07:56Z")
After all, once you have perfected the technique with religion it only makes sense to apply it to politics and philosophy too. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/149 "2009-03-03T19:11:27Z")
Everyone reads Atlas Shrugged and thinks they are Hank fucking Reardon (or Dagny Taggart if you are a woman I suppose). Dude, you are a fucking TAX ATTORNEY. You aren’t bending steel to your will or driving railroads accross the mountains. You are Reardon’s Wet Nurse advising him on what actions he should or should not take to not run afoul of the various incomprehensible regulations and acts implemented by the Looters and Moochers. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/150 "2009-03-03T19:14:57Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Everyone reads Atlas Shrugged and thinks they are Hank fucking Reardon (or Dagny Taggart if you are a woman I suppose). Well, that’s just patently untrue. It actually takes a Very Special person to think that they’re Hank or Dagny. 😉 The rest of us read Atlas Shrugged and realize it’s fucking ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/151 "2009-03-03T19:16:29Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Oh. Carry on, then. I don’t know anything about Rand Rover. Don’t recall having seen the name before. Count yourself lucky. Very, VERY lucky. **Roland** , trust me, I don’t judge libertarians-or all followers of Ayn Rand, by the assboil known as **Rand Rover**. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Yeesh. I’ll go ahead and be embarrassed for you since you apparently don’t think that’s an embarrassing admission. At least teachers are actually useful in this world-at least. Now, don’t you have some work to be doing, so you can earn some more money, so you can buy that big shiny car? And then you can come here and brag about it? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/152 "2009-03-03T20:08:27Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > Well, that’s just patently untrue. It actually takes a Very Special person to think that they’re Hank or Dagny. 😉 > > The rest of us read Atlas Shrugged and realize it’s fucking ridiculous. I wouldn’t say it’s ridiculous. If there is any lesson to be learned from Rand’s teachings it is that no one owes you anything. I don’t think a purely Objectivist society could function properly. Rand doesn’t really mention how the schools and roads get paid for in the world of Atlas Shrugged. But I do think too many people have a sense of entitlement about what the world owes them. I wouldn’t fault anyone for wanting to make money. I like making money. I also like being challenged in my job and working with bright, interesting people on interesting projects. Most people on their deathbed don’t wish they spent more time in the office because they work in the type of office that makes them wish they were on their deathbed. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/153 "2009-03-03T20:27:21Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I wouldn’t fault anyone for wanting to make money. I like making money. I also like being challenged in my job and working with bright, interesting people on interesting projects. Most people on their deathbed don’t wish they spent more time in the office because they work in the type of office that makes them wish they were on their deathbed. Well said. Guin, you are now on my triple-secret ignore list. That’s where I tell you I am ignoring you but I don’t really put you on my ignore list and I tell you that too leaving you so confused that your little pointy head asplodes. ---
**Author:** ![Rascal\_s\_Mom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a698b9/32.png) [@Rascal\_s\_Mom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rascal_s_Mom)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/154 "2009-03-03T20:31:26Z")
I’ve got no dog in this fight or anything, and this has been said in various forms already, but, dang!, **Rand Rover** , how do you find the time in a workday to read AND post this much? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/155 "2009-03-03T20:32:06Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I said “put up or shut up,” not “drop it.”. I think Ayn had a few things to say about liars. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/156 "2009-03-03T20:37:08Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well said. Um…I’m not sure I WANT to be on your side. I’m just glad someone besides me is getting pitted for being an arrogant jackass.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/157 "2009-03-03T20:56:08Z")
> [@Rascal\_s\_Mom](#): > > I’ve got no dog in this fight or anything, and this has been said in various forms already, but, dang!, **Rand Rover** , how do you find the time in a workday to read AND post this much? This comment keeps coming up and it amazes me. Some things to think about: 1. I typically participate in one thread atr a time. 2. I make lots of typos becausew I don’t proofread. 3. I typically have lots of little poclets of time throughout the day where I can hit refresh, read new posts, and maybe write a post, all opf which takes 5 minutes. For instance, I am currently sitting in the room with funny furniture. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/158 "2009-03-03T21:09:15Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Allow me to blow your mind: the world is a better place where everyone is not into helping or caring about anyone but themselves. What’s really going to bake your noodle is that there is more than just theoretical evidence that you are wrong: [http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-travelers--dilemma](http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=the-travelers--dilemma) > [@](#): > > Game theorists do have other equilibrium concepts–strict equilibrium, the rationalizable solution, perfect equilibrium, the strong equilibrium and more. Each of these concepts leads to the prediction (2, 2) for The Travelers Dilemma. And therein lies the trouble. Most of us, on introspection, feel that we would play a much larger number and would, on average, make much more than $2. Our intuition seems to contradict all of game theory. > > Implications for Economics > The game and our intuitive prediction of its outcome also contradict economists’ ideas.\*\* Early economics was firmly tethered to the libertarian presumption that individuals should be left to their own devices because their selfish choices will result in the economy running efficiently. The rise of game-theoretic methods has already done much to cut economics free from this assumption. Yet those methods have long been based on the axiom that people will make selfish rational choices that game theory can predict. TD undermines both the libertarian idea that unrestrained selfishness is good for the economy and the game-theoretic tenet that people will be selfish and rational\*\*. > > In TD, the "efficient# outcome is for both travelers to choose 100 because that results in the maximum total earnings by the two players. Libertarian selfishness would cause people to move away from 100 to lower numbers with less efficiency in the hope of gaining more individually. > > And if people do not play the Nash equilibrium strategy (2), economists’ assumptions about rational behavior should be revised. Of course, TD is not the only game to challenge the belief that people always make selfish rational choices [see "The Economics of Fair Play,# by Karl Sigmund, Ernst Fehr and Martin A. Nowak; Scientific American, January 2002]. But it makes the more puzzling point that even if players have no concern other than their own profit, it is not rational for them to play the way formal analysis predicts. > > TD has other implications for our understanding of real-world situations. The game sheds light on how the arms race acts as a gradual process, taking us in small steps to ever worsening outcomes. Theorists have also tried to extend TD to understand how two competing firms may undercut each other’s price to their own detriment (though in this case to the advantage of the consumers who buy goods from them). ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/159 "2009-03-03T21:09:21Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: I work my ass off during the week so I can have the weekends generally free to spend with the most beautiful young creature that has ever pooped on planet earth. And she’ll appreciate that **I can send her to private school and make sure she’s comfortable,** so the money I make does make a real difference in her life, it’s not like it’s some cold comfort from an absentee dad. But if it makes you feel better to think that everyone that is more successful thajn you has a bad relationship with ther kids as a result, then keep on trucking and I feel even more sorry for you than I already did. _bolding mine_ Huh, I do all that and spend every morning, evening and some lunches with my daughter; work a 8 hr. day; I even have a BlackBerry and do it all with a degree in _Theatre_. Guess some of us should have spent less time reading Rand and more time making better choices. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055/160 "2009-03-03T21:25:15Z")
Dear Hank: Congrats on that bending mighty rivers to your will thingy. But you leave in the morning again without changing the baby and its your ass. Regards, Dagny [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rand-rover-ass/488055.md?page=9)