# Random Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 18, 2010, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942 "2010-03-18T21:47:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 64
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1261 "2010-04-20T23:59:25Z")
> [@Meeko](#): > > What is it to the third man? Depends entirely on which third man you’re referring to. 😉 Obviously the Scum know I’m Town, and the Town have no clue. For the record, I’m a bit concerned about your vote yesterday. Can you explain why you trusted **Oredigger** over **Rysto**? ---
**Author:** ![Meeko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Meeko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meeko)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1262 "2010-04-21T00:02:59Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Depends entirely on which third man you’re referring to. 😉 Obviously the Scum know I’m Town, and the Town have no clue. > > For the record, I’m a bit concerned about your vote yesterday. Can you explain why you trusted **Oredigger** over **Rysto**? Not anymore than I already have. At the time, I didn’t trust either, and I felt then it would be a better move to vote as I did. IIRC I said it was a gut feeling (Or I said it was close to one). Gut feelings by definition don’t have explanations. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1263 "2010-04-21T00:53:17Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > My ASS I never brought it up. I refer you to [my post 992](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12313289&postcount=992), in which I called **Digger** out for his weak-ass vote. In that post, I say, and I quote, “Even if Chronos comes up Scum, which I think he is at this point, I still find this vote incredibly suspect.” I say “I think he is at this point” precisely because I am voting for him. To try to insinuate that I didn’t bring up the fact that I was voting for him, when anyone who reads my post for comprehension can see that I did bring it up even if I didn’t say the actual words, reads of deliberate misinterpretation to me. This point is valid. I wasn’t insinuating that you failed to bring it up. I was directly stating it, and I was entirely wrong. So lay out your case against Tom again, please. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1264 "2010-04-21T02:25:28Z")
Ok. I’ve done a bunch of reading - not as much as I would have liked - and my brain isn’t really operating at peak capacity, but here’s what I think about our five unconfirmed: 1 - Drain - I’ve got OMGUS and self-defense reasons for wanting to vote her. I find her 1117 pretty annoying, as she says “why isn’t anyone talking about Tom” when in fact everyone who’d voted for me the previous day and posted that day had in fact voted for me. Another thing that caught my eye is 1122 - > [@](#): > > Don’t look at this as a defense of Meeko–I’m at the point where I skim most of his posts unless it’s absolutely necessary, because I found a long time ago that trying to comprehend what he was getting at is futile for me–and that was when we were on the same team! When I have no idea as to his alignment, it becomes Sisyphean. But that IS a defense, really. If I were a scum teammate of Meeko’s, I’d do my best to push the “oh Meeko is so hard to read just skip over it all please” line. If either Meeko or Drain turns up Scum, I’d take a hard look at the other. Meeko’s vote on Drain problematizes that, although he cast a pretty undermotivated bus vote on her in colorless. And speaking of colorless, somehow Drain has left that out of her discussion of her successful detection of Scum on Day 1 - she did it in that game, too, after all. (But then, she was scum). All that said, I’m not seeing enough to cast a vote here. 2 - Ed. I found one very interesting thing in Ed’s posting history. First, he votes Drain on Day 1 for opposing the peeker wagon without understanding why people were voting for him. Then, on Day 2 (843 and a couple later posts) he says, in an overview of his attitudes towards people who had drawn votes that day: > [@](#): > > OK, OK, fine, let’s change that to say: I don’t really find anything out of the ordinary with Drain. I can see a Townie making the mistake regarding Zeriel and the case against peeker. And now, failing to understand the case against peeker is exhibit B in his case against her. 3 - Mahaloth By this point, I was pretty tired, having read straight through ed’s 155 posts. Again, OMGUS is a concern - Maha has been on my case for three straight days, without much apparent desire to discuss it. He never really engaged my reply to his response and vote on the Freudian thing. His posthumous response to story’s case on him has a serious logic failure in it: > [@](#): > > 1. I see story’s vote ended on me yesterDay. I don’t really know why or have much to say about it. I’m town and that’s all I can say about it. Perhaps he got a town result on Night One for Freudian or OneandOnly. I guess we won’t know, unless he bread-crumbed in some way we haven’t figured out. Umm. Story held and did not cast the tie-breaking vote in the contest between Freudian and OneandOnly. If he’d had a town result on one of them, he’d have cast it. 4 - Meeko. Sorry, I did not reread all of Meeko’s posts, so I’m working from memory, aided by what I picked up in my reread of other people. He voted peeker on “I don’t like your play” grounds, voted Freudian on OMGUS grounds, voted TexCat on Day 3 for reasons I don’t even remember, and flipped out hard about the Oredigger/Rysto contest. There’s a lot there that pings me. On the last point, on the one hand it looks likely that there was a decision on the scum board to just bus Digger, and one would expect a scummy Meeko to know this. On the other hand, just because it had been discussed on the scum board wouldn’t necessarily keep him from flipping out. Gah. This is taking forever, and I would like to spend some time with my wife before we both fall asleep. Short version of the Skeezix summary: Not much there pings me, aside from the fact that there’s not much there. Again. Not getting any super-strong pings on anyone. I’m torn between Meeko and Ed at the moment; Meeko because of the “I was burned during colorless and don’t want to be burned that way again” effect; ed because of the ping - unping - ping on Drain. **vote meeko**. I killed us in colorless by blinking at the last minute on this; won’t be fooled again. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1265 "2010-04-21T03:15:23Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > 2 - Ed. > > I found one very interesting thing in Ed’s posting history. First, he votes Drain on Day 1 for opposing the peeker wagon without understanding why people were voting for him. Then, on Day 2 (843 and a couple later posts) he says, in an overview of his attitudes towards people who had drawn votes that day: > > And now, failing to understand the case against peeker is exhibit B in his case against her. This is a correct characterization of my actions regarding Drain. My Day 1 vote was weak. I was pinged by Drain’s approach towards peeker. Further Days led to other things that bothered me more. The ping from Drain’s actions really weren’t foremost in my mind for me. The list was just meant to be notes about the various cases. Now that more has occurred with Drain, the ping on Day 1 can still be included in my case. In hindsight, I suppose I should have mentioned it when I went through my list, but it really had slipped my mind by then. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1266 "2010-04-21T03:38:42Z")
> [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > @ **Red Skeezix** , we lost two players yesterDay due to lack of activity. This seriously hurt Town as we have no idea as to their alignment. You haven’t posted in exactly 7 days and (I guess) risk being mod-killed. I maintain my suspicions of you although your defense to my case yesterDay slightly reduced my certainty of your scumminess. We cannot afford to lose another player with no reveal information, especially one I think is scum. For now: > > **Vote Red Skeezix** I see the prod, and acknowledge it, the weekend and the past couple of days have been hellish on me. My schedule is much clearer from tomorrow on, I need a rest, and a chance to review my notes. Sorry again, all. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1267 "2010-04-21T16:30:21Z")
Case against **Tom** : 1. Voting record. Has a history of voting for Town. **Cookies** , with the information she had as a Mason, was able to point that out pretty well. Not to say that Townies can’t vote for Town, but it’s definitely a black mark on him. 2. This is the biggie for me–he was the one who “caught” the typo in **Oredigger** ’s original claim. He had to go back pretty far to catch that. To me, it seems like he may have caught his teammate making the typo ahead of time (or some other Scum did and pointed it out in their thread) then decided to use it against him for Town cred later on (and to craft a fake claim as well). It all just seems way too orchestrated for me, especially since it came about when **Tom** had one foot in the fire. 3. After getting heat, he started lurking. To me, a Townie goes down swinging. I’m reviewing the stuff people are saying about me in regards to the “nobody’s talking about Tom” kerfluffle. Early in the Day, **Mahaloth** revoted for **Tom**. There were then two pages of **Meeko** arguing with everyone and masons claiming before we got our second **Tom** vote, from **Cookies**. A few posts after **Cookies** made that vote was my first mention of “Hrm, everyone’s voting for **Digger** and not really talking about **Tom** anymore.” A few posts after that, and **Digger** makes his fake claim. **Mahaloth** then unvotes **Tom** , and most posts following that (save **ed** setting up his case against me) were people discussing that. So it’s a bit disingenuous to claim that 1) everyone who had voted for **Tom** the Day before voted for him again, when I’m only counting two of the four; and 2) that people were actually discussing **Tom** when I said they weren’t. Yeah, people were, but not nearly to the extent that it was happening a Day before, when he’d bounced back and forth out of the noose until damned close to Day’s end. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1268 "2010-04-21T18:37:54Z")
1. Case against drain: Meeko’s point about drain being ‘Teflon’ is pretty ridiculous. If Drain was doing all of the things she has done for pro-town reasons, wouldn’t she be able to defend herself with her original reasoning? The rest of the reasons provided seem reasonable, but I find myself in greater agreement with the case against Tom. 2. Case against Tom: I find myself in agreement with some of these points. Some not so much, see my own case below: > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Ok. I’ve done a bunch of reading - not as much as I would have liked - and my brain isn’t really operating at peak capacity, but here’s what I think about our five unconfirmed: > > 1 - > Another thing that caught my eye is 1122 - > But that IS a defense, really. If I were a scum teammate of Meeko’s, I’d do my best to push the “oh Meeko is so hard to read just skip over it all please” line. If either Meeko or Drain turns up Scum, I’d take a hard look at the other. > (Snipped) > 4 - Meeko. Sorry, I did not reread all of Meeko’s posts, so I’m working from memory, aided by what I picked up in my reread of other people. I was considering voting for Tom largely because: 1. The more I think about it, the more Oredigger’s Chronos seems like a defensive play. It kept Chronos in the running to be lynched when things seemed to me to be switching back to Tom. 2. The slip, I think it nets out to null, but it is another point (small) against him. 3. The hypocrisy in the quoted statement above. He is chastising drain for skimming meeko’s posts but feels comfortable enough to make a case against meeko with a nod to (paraphrased) “I didn’t bother to reread, but here’s my case against him anyways”. Hmm that wasn’t very clear. To clarify, To me it seems like both drain and tom are encouraging a dismissive attitude towards meeko’s posts, but tom sees this dismissiveness as a scum trait when drain does it, but not when he himself does it. 1. As drain has pointed out, he was close enough to the noose feel the devil tugging on his heels. I was surprised to see no claim, not even a vanilla claim, even though he felt a self defense vote was warranted. **vote Tom Scud** ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1269 "2010-04-21T18:49:43Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > So it’s a bit disingenuous to claim that 1) everyone who had voted for **Tom** the Day before voted for him again, when I’m only counting two of the four; I think its a bit disingenuous to claim that two of the four (50%) were voting for him the next day when only 3 of Tom’s voters were alive the next day. So two of the three (66%). And the third hadn’t even posted yet that day, so that would be 2 of 2 present or 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1270 "2010-04-21T18:52:47Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > I think its a bit disingenuous to claim that two of the four (50%) were voting for him the next day when only 3 of Tom’s voters were alive the next day. So two of the three (66%). And the third hadn’t even posted yet that day, so that would be 2 of 2 present or 100%. Didn’t catch that one of them was the NK. I was just looking for bold blue posts that said Tom Scud and comparing that to the number of people who were voting for him the Day before, since what was said was that all of the people who had voted for him previously had revoted. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1271 "2010-04-21T18:58:01Z")
Also, my larger point in going over the history was that the vast majority of that Day was spent talking about anything other than **Tom** , in part due to a **Meeko** -created distraction after the Mason claim. So I think it was a valid point to say that **Tom** wasn’t being discussed as much as I would have thought, given how the previous Day had ended. Right now, if I had to pick, I think our remaining Scum are **Tom** , **ed** , and **Meeko** , with one other either remaining at large or dead without reveal. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1272 "2010-04-21T19:02:15Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > 1. Case against drain: Meeko’s point about drain being ‘Teflon’ is pretty ridiculous. If Drain was doing all of the things she has done for pro-town reasons, wouldn’t she be able to defend herself with her original reasoning? The rest of the reasons provided seem reasonable, but I find myself in greater agreement with the case against Tom. > > 2. Case against Tom: I find myself in agreement with some of these points. Some not so much, see my own case below: > > I was considering voting for Tom largely because: > > 1. The more I think about it, the more Oredigger’s Chronos seems like a defensive play. It kept Chronos in the running to be lynched when things seemed to me to be switching back to Tom. > > 2. The slip, I think it nets out to null, but it is another point (small) against him. > > 3. The hypocrisy in the quoted statement above. He is chastising drain for skimming meeko’s posts but feels comfortable enough to make a case against meeko with a nod to (paraphrased) “I didn’t bother to reread, but here’s my case against him anyways”. > > Hmm that wasn’t very clear. To clarify, To me it seems like both drain and tom are encouraging a dismissive attitude towards meeko’s posts, but tom sees this dismissiveness as a scum trait when drain does it, but not when he himself does it. > > 1. As drain has pointed out, he was close enough to the noose feel the devil tugging on his heels. I was surprised to see no claim, not even a vanilla claim, even though he felt a self defense vote was warranted. I can see the case. I’ll need to re-read. I think point 3 though, is not a Scum-tell. It’s just poor play if you’re Scum or Town ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1273 "2010-04-21T19:52:22Z")
OK, so I haven’t had a lot to say today mainly because I got my vote out there early and have little to respond to the conversations I’ve seen. I still think Tom is the best vote for the Day and I’ve seen little reason to change my vote at this point. I think Red did a pretty good job summarizing the situation with Tom. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1274 "2010-04-21T21:18:55Z")
As far as I can see we have the following: Drain (2): Special Ed 1225, Meeko 1256 Tom (3): Drain 1227, Mahaloth 1232, Red 1268 Red (1): Guiri 1246 Meeko (1): Tom 1264 @ **Cookies** and **Rysto** , I’d suggest the 3 of us should attempt to vote together toDay. With our votes plus one or more of the townies from the unconfirmed pool, we should be able to avoid any scum manipulation of the lynch. We may have one mislynch left but we can’t be sure… @ **Cookies** , I’m in a bit of a situation with regards to **Tom**. I’m starting to buy into the cases being made against him but, when I look at who’s voting him, I’m uncomfortable. I’ve already expressed suspicions of both **Red** and **Mahaloth** and I can’t reconcile those suspicions with a vote on the same candidate - although they may be bussing **Tom** … Until his latest post, which just confirms his vote, **Mahaloth** ’s total contribution to toDay was his vote post. He hasn’t responded to my question about his memory loss after **Story** was killed and he didn’t bother to comment to **Tom** about the illogical argument in that same post. The whole “people, we need to talk” and “I’ve nothing to say” really bothered me along with the “Was witch town?” question after **Peeker** ’s flip. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1275 "2010-04-21T21:39:53Z")
I definitely agree that we should try and vote together as a block. I’ll need to do a re-read on Mahaloth though. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1276 "2010-04-21T22:28:31Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > Didn’t catch that one of them was the NK. I was just looking for bold blue posts that said Tom Scud and comparing that to the number of people who were voting for him the Day before, since what was said was that all of the people who had voted for him previously had revoted. I’m sorry. I’m pretty sure I mentioned earlier that only the people who had previously voted me and had posted in the thread, meaning not Chronos and not Zeriel, had re-voted me. But I guess that since you can’t be bothered to read, you must be Town. I think you argued that somewhere. But I can’t be bothered to read. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1277 "2010-04-21T22:29:54Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > 1. The hypocrisy in the quoted statement above. He is chastising drain for skimming meeko’s posts but feels comfortable enough to make a case against meeko with a nod to (paraphrased) “I didn’t bother to reread, but here’s my case against him anyways”. Screw you Red. I’d just read through ed’s 150 posts, mahaloth’s 60, drain’s 50, and your 30 whole big posts, two or three of which were longer than three lines. Fucking hell am I going to spend the rest of the night reading Meeko. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1278 "2010-04-21T22:30:59Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > OK, so I haven’t had a lot to say today mainly because I got my vote out there early and have little to respond to the conversations I’ve seen. I still think Tom is the best vote for the Day and I’ve seen little reason to change my vote at this point. I think Red did a pretty good job summarizing the situation with Tom. And thank you, Captain “me, too”. I’m sure you’re damn busy these days which explains the ten posts in the last three weeks, three of which were “oh i guess i’ll still vote for Tom because I can’t be bothered to read or respond to his responses to me.” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2010, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1279 "2010-04-21T22:34:31Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > 1. This is the biggie for me–he was the one who “caught” the typo in **Oredigger** ’s original claim. He had to go back pretty far to catch that. To me, it seems like he may have caught his teammate making the typo ahead of time (or some other Scum did and pointed it out in their thread) then decided to use it against him for Town cred later on (and to craft a fake claim as well). It all just seems way too orchestrated for me, especially since it came about when **Tom** had one foot in the fire. You know what, this is how I play the game, in the later days. I go back through people’s history, post by post, and look for shit that others missed. That’s how I found stuff by Mahaloth and Ed from two days ago. > [@](#): > > 1. After getting heat, he started lurking. To me, a Townie goes down swinging. Well, I’m fucking sorry I didn’t spend like sixty posts whining about how everyone who voted for me is scum, and then cap it off by voting for myself. That and your unerring sense of Normal’s towniness won us Screamers, as I recall. In summary, screw you all. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942/1280 "2010-04-22T00:07:24Z")
You know, **Tom** , there’s a way to defend yourself and not be douchey about it. That having been said, what you’re doing now kinda makes me think of the **story** vs. **sachertorte** fight in Cecil Pond. I actually hope you’re not Scum, because if you’re _faking_ taking all this stuff personally, I’m going to be very offended, instead of just mildly miffed. **[color=red]unvote Tom**[color] I know that puts me in a tie for the lead. I’m straight-up boring vanilla Town, and I will vote with the Masons, provided they don’t end up voting for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942.md?page=63) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-mafia/532942.md?page=65)