# Random searches on the New York Subway **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 21, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545 "2005-07-21T22:32:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/401 "2005-07-25T18:48:47Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > I NEVER said that terrorist attacks can be eliminated. Merely that the effects of such an attack can be minimized. how does changing a system from a seive to a funnel **minimize** anything? ---
**Author:** ![Flyhalf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ea5d25/32.png) [@Flyhalf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyhalf)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/402 "2005-07-25T19:21:37Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Funny to call me a sheep, and yet, I’m the one disagreeing in this thread… Are you really this obtuse? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/403 "2005-07-25T19:23:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Raul Claudio, described by prosecutors as having a prior conviction for drug dealing, was arraigned Monday on charges of making terrorist threats and falsely reporting an incident for the bomb scare at Pennsylvania Station. Each count carries a sentence of up to seven years in prison. Bail was set at $15,000. > > Claudio, 43, was arrested in the station Sunday after he allegedly **threw a backpack at an Amtrak agent and said it was a bomb** , said Marissa Baldeo, a spokeswoman for NYC Transit. > > Camouflage-clad soldiers briefly were shouting “Penn Station is closed indefinitely,” before they got the all-clear and started letting people back into the station. [The System Works](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&e=5&u=/ap/20050725/ap_on_re_us/penn_station_threat), at least insofar as to giving drug dealers new ideas on how to avoid getting caught. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/404 "2005-07-25T20:38:11Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [The System Works](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=533&e=5&u=/ap/20050725/ap_on_re_us/penn_station_threat), at least insofar as to giving drug dealers new ideas on how to avoid getting caught. > [@](#): > > Also Sunday, a double-decker Gray Line tourist bus was evacuated in midtown Manhattan after a bus company supervisor told police that five male passengers with backpacks and “stuffed” pockets had raised her suspicions. > > Police handcuffed five men and searched about 60 passengers before determining there was no threat. The five men were freed. Dear God. This is shameful. Handcuffed because some nervous bus company supervisor was pissing her pants. Reason has lost. Freedom is dying. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/405 "2005-07-25T20:39:24Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > However, I THINK we can minimize the damage by having increased security, with searches, at major hubs. I THINK that if there are searches at major hubs, terrorists will have to settle on smaller stations. I THINK that this will make it more difficult to get an explosive into a major hub and cause major damage. I THINK that there is a chance that many attacks can be averted entirely. But there is no logical reason to THINK any of those things. The only scenario under whcihh your assertions would be reasonable is if the terrorist in question is a copmplete idiot, or is too lazy to carry his bomb on the subway from a quiet station to a busy one. Given that any attack such as this would take considerable intelligence, planning, and patience, there are no grounds for your assumptions. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > See guys, I respond to the questions posed seriously and calmly. Oh, you are definitely calm. And i have no doubt that you are serious. But your arguments are also completely lacking the most elemental logic and common sense. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Two scenarios: > > 1. There are no searches. I can directly go into Penn Station, with no fear of being searched and caught. I can explode at will in the most crowded area. Sure. Entirely possible. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > 1. There are searches. They are concentrated in stations such as Penn Station, but there are still police at other stations. I see them all the time at 23rd St. > > Now, a terrorist can either try to get into Penn, and have a chance of being caught. Again you ignore the most obvious issue—there is no chance of him actually being caught, because he does not have to consent to a search of his belongings. He can simply turn around and try again later and/or at a different station. I assume you’re at least still rational enough to concede that a terrorist will not accede to a search of his belongings? If you do concede this, then please explain how, under the system as it currently works, there is any chance that this person would be caught with his bomb. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Or he can, as has been noted, get asked to be searched and walk away (though, I doubt it would work this way in practice. I mean, C’mon, suspicious looking guy with big box refuses search and walks away is going to be tailed, but for the purposes of this argument, I’ll ignore this). The plan gets altered and has a lower chance of success. Your idiocy escalates. Having conveniently ignored my earlier questions about the nature of the explosives, you now shift the goalposts once again and start assuming that any bomb must be in a “big box.” You’re just embarassing yourself now. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > He can, as noted, go to a station with less security and either do the deed there with less damage or try to get to Penn, where again, he might get caught as in scenario one above, or he might lose his nerve, or he might have unstable explosives that go off before he gets to Penn, or he might decide to detonate at 23rd St with lower casualties, or he might get to Penn and do what he originally intended to do. I thought you said earlier in the thread that you lived in New York City. That’s obviously a lie—you live in fucking fantasy land. Let me ask you again: do you actually know _anything_ about the types of explosives used in these incidents that might warrant your assumptions about instability? I don’t think i’ve seen such wilful ignorance and unwillingness to follow the most basic tenets of logic and reason since **milroyj** was banned from these boards. ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/406 "2005-07-25T20:54:36Z")
Count me on the “these searches aren’t going to do a damned thing” side. Anyone find it hilariously stupid that one of the first things done from a PR perspective was to highlight this guy who got busted at the Brentwood LIRR station (discussed earlier in the thread)? BTW, the stop I get on/off at every day is two stops east of Brentwood. The first radio reports I heard were that random bag checks had resulted in the capture of someone with a shotgun and ammunition. Turns out it wasn’t a bag check at all - the guy was parked at the station parking lot. Also turns out it wasn’t exactly a shotgun - just a bunch of fake guns, a machete, a pair of nunchakus and a stun gun. Dunno what this guy was planning, but it couldn’t have been a serious attempt at terrorism. This junk wouldn’t have gotten him very far if he were planning multiple civilian deaths. Yes, nunchakus are technically illegal in New York State. But they catch kids running around with them from time to time in my Long Island neighborhood and I can’t remember anyone ever being arrested for them. (Usually, the worst the cops will do is bring the kid home to his parents.) We’re not exactly talking about weapons of mass destruction here. And the initial attempt to pass this off as some sort of proof that bag checks were effective was laughable. For me, a big concern is that if we let these bag checks go on without protest, what they’re doing in New York today will be cited as justification the next time the government wants to poke its nose into our business. I am usually not a fan of slippery slope arguments, but what’s the first thing done by many of the folks who would take away our rights when they’re looking to do so? Search for a precedent, that’s what. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. You can’t expect to catch anyone unless you search not just the “popular” or “most trafficked” stations, but also the places where terrorists could reasonably expect to get on and off trains without being challenged. That includes not only all the stations in the outer boroughs, but also ALL the other trains coming into and out of Penn Station and Grand Central Station. Dunno what’s going on here, but so far I’ve seen bag checks announced for the subway and for the LIRR. What about NJ Transit, Amtrak, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/407 "2005-07-25T20:54:43Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Let me ask you again: do you actually know _anything_ about the types of explosives used in these incidents that might warrant your assumptions about instability? I’m not he, however: > [@](#): > > Acetone peroxide is made from common household items - sulphuric acid, hydrogen peroxide and acetone - and is known scientifically as triacetone triperoxide or TATP. > … > It loses its qualities over time and deteriorates in such a way that it’s not very useful as an explosive any more." > … > "It sublimates away like camphor. Sublimation is the evaporation of a solid, as molecules leave a solid to go into the gas phase, as with camphor mothballs. [Bomb material deteriorates in ‘just a few days’](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/22/uexplosives.xml&sSheet=/portal/2005/07/22/ixportaltop.html) On a more peculiar note:[Bomb packed with perfume!](http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=117526&Sn=WORL&IssueID=28122) > [@](#): > > Investigators tried to piece together more clues in the London bombings, including a tip that one of the suicide bombers bought several bottles of perfume to make the bomb even deadlier. Some reports claim the bomber purchased as much as $2,000 worth of the stinky stuff. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/408 "2005-07-25T21:09:36Z")
Thanks **Squink**. I have no doubt that your cites are accurate. But **Fiveyearlurker** ’s claim about instability was attached to an assumption that the bomb was likely to go off early, unexpectedly. Your evidence, on the other hand, merely suggests that the bomb loses its destructive capacity over time. To be honest, i think his position is absurd even if one conceded that he might be right about bomb stability. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/409 "2005-07-25T21:19:50Z")
Oops: > [@](#): > > The explosive is highly sensitive to heat, friction, and **shock** … [Vital clues from failed explosions](http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/hi/news/5041510.html) More on [triacetone triperoxide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone_peroxide) at Wiki: > [@](#): > > Acetone peroxide is highly heat, friction, and shock sensitive. Even professional chemists have been injured attempting to use it… It seems like a poor choice, but maybe that’s all they knew how to make? ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/410 "2005-07-26T06:18:12Z")
> [@wring](#): > > so, if the terrorists plant something on some one w/out their knowledge (“here, would you mind carrying this backpack for me, and by the way, I’ll be taking the next train, but I’ll meet you up at the next station, I promise”), this plan **might** work in an astonishingly small number of cases. Wow, finally someone stated a method in which this security setup could actually work, albeit quite unlikely. If the people who are actually supporting it could come up with something just a bit more likely, they might be taken seriously. Instead, they don’t even seem to be trying. The people against the plan are making better arguments than they are, which is sad. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/411 "2005-07-26T19:07:51Z")
> [@wring](#): > > how does changing a system from a seive to a funnel minimize anything? Obviously by passively encouraging a would-be subway bomber to constuct and explode a smaller device - one that’s less detectable with a cursory visual inspection of his backback. Not that this is to be considered a laudable or reasonable goal the cops should be trying to attain. > [@Biggirl](#): > > Even with supposed 100% of bags check, this idea is ineffective. Right. Also notable is that the airport screenings are conducted by the TSA are performed in an environment which is far more controlled, has far fewer passengers, and allows far more time for the cops to conduct their screenings. Even more notable, is that the TSA is a **federal** operation and has many, many times more resources to throw at the problem that does NYC. And yet, the TSA operation is **still** fraught with error. Checking NYC subway riders is actually far more difficult problem to solve than what the TSA does in the airports. And the proposal here tries solve that much larger problem with fewer assets and less stringent procedures. ---
**Author:** ![ltfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@ltfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ltfire)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/412 "2005-07-26T19:28:14Z")
Here’s a web site that just came on line yesterday. [http://www.nosubwaysearches.com/](http://www.nosubwaysearches.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/413 "2005-07-26T21:30:19Z")
How far outside of the box are we allowed to go? I’m damn certain I could get one huge bomb into NYC no problem. All I’d have to do is catch my normal train in Germantown Maryland, ride it into Union Station. Go buy a ticket, without even talking to anyone, to NYC. Hell along the way if I find I can’t make it I can blow up DC or Philly no problem. Plus, I’m not hampered by a mear backpack, I can take two of those rolling suitcases _and_ a backpack. How are you ever going to stop me? I’ve never been on the DC to NYC train before, but I’m pretty sure that I could leave a bomb on there and get on to leaving one some place else. I think this policy is shit and is not going to work. Hell at Ozzfest over the weekend they were searching everyone and I still saw tons of stuff they were looking for and that was with only one gate. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/414 "2005-07-26T21:56:12Z")
On a totally unrelated note, I am scrupulously marking this thread for future reference when I’m told by gun rights opponents that the slippery slope is an impossibility in a representative democracy such as ours, and a logical fallacy in all its uses, as I see several persons from the side of the fence opposite myself positing such an occurence here as a potential (and perhaps even likely) outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/415 "2005-07-26T22:00:25Z")
> [@Edward The Head](#): > > Hell at Ozzfest over the weekend they were searching everyone and I still saw tons of stuff they were looking for and that was with only one gate. Even the **Munchkins** are joining al Q now? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/416 "2005-07-26T22:32:51Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > On a totally unrelated note, I am scrupulously marking this thread for future reference when I’m told by gun rights opponents that the slippery slope is an impossibility in a representative democracy such as ours, and a logical fallacy in all its uses, as I see several persons from the side of the fence opposite myself positing such an occurence here as a potential (and perhaps even likely) outcome. Are there a large number of gun control proponents who aren’t willing to admit exactly how far down the slope they think we should go? If not, I fail to see the relevance, since that’s the problem here with this issue. I can’t get the proponents of this measure to tell us where they stand on that slope, while I’ll be more than happy to tell you exactly where I stand on gun control, in as much detail as you’d like. I’m pretty sure most gun control advocates would gladly do the same. Feel free to mark the thread, but unless your questions regarding their stance are ignored, or are answered with something along the lines of “somewhere between requiring gun safety courses and locking everyone up who owns a gun”, it won’t be a good frame of reference. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/417 "2005-07-26T22:59:34Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > Are there a large number of gun control proponents who aren’t willing to admit exactly how far down the slope they think we should go? If not, I fail to see the relevance, since that’s the problem here with this issue. This is as far as I intend to go down this road in this thread, but history shows an exact parallel. I asked once upon a time this question in GD and was met by a nearly complete lack of substantive responses. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=74350](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=74350) I would however, be happy to take up this topic again at some future date. And most interested to hear your opinion, DMC. In any case, I’m enjoying your posts in this thread, DMC. And when I make another trip to New Orleans, I will be certain to let you know. I can’t tell you how much I enjoyed that evening at Dickie Brennan’s. It ranks right up there as one of the most enjoyable dinners of all the vacations I’ve ever taken. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/418 "2005-07-26T23:22:58Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > On a totally unrelated note, I am scrupulously marking this thread for future reference when I’m told by gun rights opponents that the slippery slope is an impossibility in a representative democracy such as ours, and a logical fallacy in all its uses, as I see several persons from the side of the fence opposite myself positing such an occurence here as a potential (and perhaps even likely) outcome. Well, if you look hard enough, the slippery slope was actually predeclared as the ultimate goal. It’s just that some people didn’t pay any attention. “We’re going to have to take one step at a time, and the first step is necessarily - given the political realities - going to be very modest. Of course, it’s true that politicians will then go home and say, `This is a great law. The problem is solved.’ And it’s also true that such statements will tend to defuse the gun-control issue for a time. So then we’ll have to start working again to strengthen that law, and then again to strengthen the next law, and maybe again and again. Right now, though, we’d be satisfied not with half a loaf but with a slice. **Our ultimate goal - total control of handguns in the United States - is going to take time**. My estimate is from seven to ten years. The first problem is to slow down the increasing number of handguns being produced and sold in this country. The second problem is to get all handguns registered. And the **final problem is to make the possession of all handguns and all handgun ammunition** - except for the military, policemen, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs, and licensed gun collectors - **totally illegal**.” - Mr… Nelson T. Shields, III. “Pete” founder of the National Council To Control Handguns, which became Handgun Control, Inc. quoted from July 26, 1976 issue of The New Yorker Interview “A Reporter At Large - Handguns”, page 53. "Ultimately, a civilized society must **disarm its citizenry** if it is to have a modicum of domestic tranquility of the kind enjoyed by sister democracies such as Canada and Britain. Given the frontier history and individualist ideology of the United States, however, this will not come easily. It certainly cannot be done radically. It will probably take one, maybe two generations. It might be 50 years before the United States gets to where Britain is today. Passing a law like the assault weapons ban is a symbolic - purely symbolic - move in that direction. Its only real justification is not to reduce crime but to **desensitize the public to the regulation of weapons in preparation for their ultimate confiscation**. " - Charles Krauthammer,The Washington Post, Friday, April 5, 1996, page A19 op-ed piece entitled “Disarm The Citizenry” “I don’t care about crime, **I just want to get the guns**.” - Senator Howard Metzenbaum 1994 “Gun registration is **not enough**.” - Janet Reno (Attorney General) December 10th, 1993 ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/419 "2005-07-26T23:45:59Z")
I’m quite aware of all that Steverino, my man. May I, however, respectfully ask that we all drop that tangent from this particular thread? It’s my fault entirely for bringing it up in the first place, of course, but can we just leave it alone? In any case, I wanna apologize to y’all for broaching such a topic; it’s totally out of place. It was not my intention, although a moment’s reflection would have showed me it was likely inevitable, to try to take this thread in such a direction. Sorry 'bout that. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/420 "2005-07-26T23:49:30Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I’m quite aware of all that Steverino, my man. May I, however, respectfully ask that we all drop that tangent from this particular thread? It’s my fault entirely for bringing it up in the first place, of course, but can we just leave it alone? OK, I just was adding my 2 cents worth. Bacl to the subject at hand. Am I the only one who is “confused” by how our rights/freedom/privileges are constantly being eroded in the name of freedom? This New York search and seizure “experiment” will only be one in an ongoing chain of erosions. Each one conditions us to accept the next. And the next. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545.md?page=22)