# Random searches on the New York Subway **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 21, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545 "2005-07-21T22:32:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/421 "2005-07-27T01:36:50Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > This is as far as I intend to go down this road in this thread, but history shows an exact parallel. I asked once upon a time this question in GD and was met by a nearly complete lack of substantive responses. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=74350](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=74350) There were at least some responses that were fairly detailed, but I’ll agree with you that there is a faction of folks in this country, and probably in that thread, who would indeed attempt to use a slippery slope to completely remove guns from our society, although I have no idea how large that group is. I’m certainly not one of them, even though I do advocate gun control. The slippery slope status of gun control is probably closely aligned with the abortion debate in this respect. Both have people that fall at various places in the spectrum, but some are grabbing inches and hoping to turn them into miles, while others are perfectly happy stopping once a few inches have been reached. I still don’t understand the reluctance of the proponents of these searches to answer the question. Since it’s already a slope (first airports, then stadiums and other large get togethers, now NYC subways, and almost definitely whatever the next target might happen to be), it seems like people would be willing to state where they’d draw the line. > [@](#): > > I would however, be happy to take up this topic again at some future date. And most interested to hear your opinion, DMC. To be fair, it’s not really a “hot-button” topic for me, so I often avoid gun-control threads, but if I see one with your name as the OP, I’ll happily come in and let you know my stance in full detail. > [@](#): > > In any case, I’m enjoying your posts in this thread, DMC. And when I make another trip to New Orleans, I will be certain to let you know. I can’t tell you how much I enjoyed that evening at Dickie Brennan’s. It ranks right up there as one of the most enjoyable dinners of all the vacations I’ve ever taken. Likewise, but next time we’ll have to fly into New Orleans ourselves for that dinner. We moved to Atlanta a couple of years ago, and while the food here is good, it’s not New Orleans good.😃 That was also my first and only get together with a group of dopers, and even though it was a small gathering, it was quite enjoyable. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/422 "2005-07-27T19:03:19Z")
Place an NRA member and a gun-control advocate on either side of the entrance, arguing with their usual passion. Anyone walking through the argument would either have their explosives detonate sympathetically, or would decide it wasn’t worth it and abort. For added effect we could position a Creationist-Secularist pair a few feet along… 🆒 As a point of curiosity, how interconnected is the Subway with the other systems (metro rail, PATH and so on)? Is it possible to switch from one system to the other without going through a turnstile, and are there turnstiles between the different Subway lines? It’s been five years since I was there and I only made a couple of trips up and down Manhattan… ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/423 "2005-07-27T21:46:49Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Place an NRA member and a gun-control advocate on either side of the entrance, arguing with their usual passion. Anyone walking through the argument would either have their explosives detonate sympathetically, or would decide it wasn’t worth it and abort. For added effect we could position a Creationist-Secularist pair a few feet along… 🆒 While I realize this was tongue in cheek, UncleBeer and myself prove it wrong. We probably agree on maybe 1% of major political issues, tops, yet I had a wonderful time talking to him over dinner at a get together a few years ago. > [@](#): > > As a point of curiosity, how interconnected is the Subway with the other systems (metro rail, PATH and so on)? Is it possible to switch from one system to the other without going through a turnstile, and are there turnstiles between the different Subway lines? It’s been five years since I was there and I only made a couple of trips up and down Manhattan… I’ve only ever taken the subways when there, as most of my business is in a fairly localized area, but if memory serves there are indeed stations where you can transfer from subway to rail (and vice versa), for example, without having to exit and reenter. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/424 "2005-07-28T12:25:46Z")
> [@](#): > > While I realize this was tongue in cheek, UncleBeer and myself prove it wrong. We probably agree on maybe 1% of major political issues, tops, yet I had a wonderful time talking to him over dinner at a get together a few years ago. We seem to agree on the topic of this thread - and I almost certainly the larger issue surrounding it. Government usurpation and circumvention of an individual’s right to privacy is to be abhored. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/425 "2005-07-28T14:47:35Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > As a point of curiosity, how interconnected is the Subway with the other systems (metro rail, PATH and so on)? Is it possible to switch from one system to the other without going through a turnstile, and are there turnstiles between the different Subway lines? It’s been five years since I was there and I only made a couple of trips up and down Manhattan… There are no turnstiles between lines – once you’re in the system, you’re in for as far as you want to ride it, since it works on a flat fee regardless of distance traveled. Commuter rail including PATH, NJ Transit, LIRR and MetroNorth all link up with the subway at various locations (Penn Station, Grand Central Station, and Atlantic Avenue, for example). You do have to exit the light rail and then enter the subway through a turnstile when tranferring between these. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/426 "2005-07-30T11:08:06Z")
So the useless policy has been in place for a week. It took all week for cops to get to every subway station. Total cost: $1.3 to 1.9 million in overtime People inspected: about 30,000 on the subway, buses, and trains in the Metropolitan New York region. What was found? One guy in New Jersey had a couple of large firecrackers. [Linkety-link](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/30/nyregion/30search.html) ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/427 "2005-07-30T11:46:41Z")
you’re ignoring the most important thing-\* no suicide bombing attacks occurred during the test\* Obviously the system worked! I should also note for the record the following **also** did not happen there: no pink unicorns were able to get on, Elvis did **not** leave, the Pope did not have his funny hat stolen and there were also no attacks from rare white Siberian tigers on the subway. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/428 "2005-07-30T13:19:47Z")
Are you guys kidding? It was a complete success, all its goals were reached. Some people had the feeling of safety, and another precedent was set for removing civil liberties from a scared public willing to give them up. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/429 "2005-07-30T13:32:16Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > So the useless policy has been in place for a week. It took all week for cops to get to every subway station. > > Total cost: $1.3 to 1.9 million in overtime > People inspected: about 30,000 on the subway, buses, and trains in the Metropolitan New York region. > > What was found? One guy in New Jersey had a couple of large firecrackers. > [Linkety-link](http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/30/nyregion/30search.html) As long as you are going to use one week as your readout, at least don’t cherry pick statistics: (1010 WINS) (NEW YORK) The increase in security checks on New York City subways has had a side benefit. Police say subway crime is down 23 percent this month - compared to the same period last year. > **[New York City News Radio Station - WINS-AM | 1010 WINS](https://www.audacy.com/1010wins)** > > 1010WINS news radio station covering NYC, New Jersey, and Long Island. You give us 22 minutes, we'll give you the world! Stream and download from any device on Audacy. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/430 "2005-07-30T14:00:00Z")
Nobody doubts giving up civil liberties will reduce crime, it’s just that many think it’s not worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/431 "2005-07-30T14:14:46Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Nobody doubts giving up civil liberties will reduce crime, it’s just that many think it’s not worth it. That’s actually a point that I made several pages ago, but was shouted down for: > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > If anyone wants to argue that even if proven effective, that this system is a bad idea, that is a truthful and respectable opinion and worthy of debate. But anyone who says that they KNOW this will be ineffective is taking that on faith, which is frowned upon around here, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/432 "2005-07-30T14:31:03Z")
I see your crime decrease stat, and point out two caveats: 1) July was damn hot compared to last year, and when it’s that hot, even the criminals stay at home; 2) crime has been decreasing on the subway for the past year with the notable exception of ipod thefts. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/433 "2005-07-30T14:35:11Z")
> [@Barbarian](#): > > I see your crime decrease stat, and point out two caveats: 1) July was damn hot compared to last year, and when it’s that hot, even the criminals stay at home; 2) crime has been decreasing on the subway for the past year with the notable exception of ipod thefts. I thank you for looking at data objectively. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/434 "2005-07-30T14:41:25Z")
I have never ridden a NY subway, so this might be a stupid post. But if I were intent on carrying a bomb to blow up the train or station, and I saw people being searched ahead of me, wouldn’t I just turn around and leave? Do they herd people into a closed space without warning before beginning a search? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/435 "2005-07-30T14:44:07Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > I have never ridden a NY subway, so this might be a stupid post. But if I were intent on carrying a bomb to blow up the train or station, and I saw people being searched ahead of me, wouldn’t I just turn around and leave? Do they herd people into a closed space without warning before beginning a search? You could, but that would certainly stand out, according to a week’s worth of data: Samuel J. Plumeri Jr., the superintendent of the Port Authority Police Department, said that his officers had inspected the briefcases, backpacks and purses of 8,010 commuters in PATH train stations and bus terminals this week without making a single arrest. Only five people had refused to cooperate, and each of them walked away without any incident, he said. “We really had, I would say, no issues at all,” said Mr. Plumeri, who described the rate of refusal as “remarkably low.” From (registration required): > **[A Week of Random Backpack Searches Yields Little Drama (Published 2005)](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/30/nyregion/a-week-of-random-backpack-searches-yields-little-drama.html)** > > In the past eight days, the New York Police Department has randomly searched through the bags of several thousand commuters in more than 400 subway stations. About 20,000 other travelers have submitted to inspections of their belongings in bus... ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/436 "2005-07-30T14:45:00Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > As long as you are going to use one week as your readout, at least don’t cherry pick statistics: > > (1010 WINS) (NEW YORK) The increase in security checks on New York City subways has had a side benefit. Police say subway crime is down 23 percent this month - compared to the same period last year. > > [New York City News Radio Station - WINS-AM | 1010 WINS](http://1010wins.com/topstories/local_story_207110250.html) I don’t recall anyone in this thread denying that it might stop other, non-terrorism-related crime. But that was never what the argument was about in the first place. Of course placing hundreds of cops in the subway is going to reduce subway crime. The question is, and always was, whether it was going to discourage or prevent a terrorist attack, and the simple fact of the matter is that the very rules under which the system of searching works means that a terrorist can choose to avoid detection and simply move to another station. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/437 "2005-07-30T14:50:18Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > You could, but that would certainly stand out, according to a week’s worth of data: > > Samuel J. Plumeri Jr., the superintendent of the Port Authority Police Department, said that his officers had inspected the briefcases, backpacks and purses of 8,010 commuters in PATH train stations and bus terminals this week without making a single arrest. Only five people had refused to cooperate, and each of them walked away without any incident, he said. And what happened to those five people? That’s right. Nothing. There is no way of knowing why they refused the searches, or whether or not they were carrying anything illegal or dangerous. Your whole argument seems to be based on a belief that refusing inspection will somehow get you targetted by the police, and yet this position directly contradicts the clearly-stated policies of the New York Police Department and the Mayor’s office with regard to these searches. How’s life up there in fairyland? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/438 "2005-07-30T14:51:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I don’t recall anyone in this thread denying that it might stop other, non-terrorism-related crime. But that was never what the argument was about in the first place. Of course placing hundreds of cops in the subway is going to reduce subway crime. > > The question is, and always was, whether it was going to discourage or prevent a terrorist attack, and the simple fact of the matter is that the very rules under which the system of searching works means that a terrorist can choose to avoid detection and simply move to another station. And I never denied that possibility, merely advocated waiting for data, and in the admittedly preliminary data cited above, only 5 of more than 8000 people refused searches. If one of those people were suspicious, I’m certain that they would have been tailed by the police if they attempted to enter at another point. Also, it should be pointed out (from the same NY Times article): “Not even the New York Civil Liberties Union, which is considering filing a lawsuit to stop the searches, had documented any serious conflicts caused by the new policy.” ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/439 "2005-07-30T14:54:43Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > How’s life up there in fairyland? Listen, I understand that being obnoxious is a successful method for gathering people for a pile-on. If you feel the need, feel free. This will not change the fact that waiting for data before you make a decision is a rational way to make policy. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/440 "2005-07-30T15:02:43Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Listen, I understand that being obnoxious is a successful method for gathering people for a pile-on. If you feel the need, feel free. > > This will not change the fact that waiting for data before you make a decision is a rational way to make policy. You keep saying this. But there _is_ no data you could gather, short of actually showing me the arrest of a man with a backpack full of bombs, that would provide convincing evidence that this strategy is having any beneficial effect whatsoever in the area of terrorism. > [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > “Not even the New York Civil Liberties Union, which is considering filing a lawsuit to stop the searches, had documented any serious conflicts caused by the new policy.” You’re not especially convincing when a key aspect of your “argument” is that the erosion of civil liberties have been accompanied not by a bang, but by a whimper. As the woman from the ACLU also said, in the _Times_ article you linked to: > [@](#): > > “Compliance with the policy should not be mistaken for approval,” Ms. Lieberman said. “New Yorkers are always in a hurry. Many people need to use the subways and have chosen to comply and undergo whatever privacy invasion they are subject to rather than be inconvenienced.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545.md?page=23)