# Random searches on the New York Subway **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 21, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545 "2005-07-21T22:32:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/101 "2005-07-22T15:56:36Z")
Was Mr. Jones money confiscated or you are saying because it was eventually returned, that means his money wasn’t really confiscated? ---
**Author:** ![xbuckeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9e8a1a/32.png) [@xbuckeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xbuckeye)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/102 "2005-07-22T15:59:38Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > [Willie Jones](http://www.nacdl.org/MEDIA/pr000050.htm) And why does someone with legitimate business travel with that much cash on a plane to buy nursery stock that he can’t transport on the plane anyway? I have only been to NYC once, but I really doubt that the average New Yorker is wandering around with thousands of dollars in their pockets and backpacks. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/103 "2005-07-22T16:00:23Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > Was Mr. Jones money confiscated or you are saying because it was eventually returned, that means his money wasn’t really confiscated? No, I’ll grant that it was confiscated. However, Mr. Jones’ case is not relevant. It happened in 1991. In 2000, the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act went into effect. It prevents the government from confiscating money in circumstances similar to Mr. Jones. So I’ll allow that if we were having this discussion before 2000, the concerns would be well-founded. In response to valid concerns, the government changed the law. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/104 "2005-07-22T16:01:36Z")
Ya know, despite the vitriol displayed by some here, this is a pretty good discussion, and ought to be in GD. > [@](#): > > In the end, everything I’m carrying is legal. That refutes the claim made above: “The pragmatic reason law-abiding citizens are concerned about intrusive search is the realization that, if the police look hard enough, there really are no law-abiding citizens – it’s simply not possible to keep up with, much less obey, all the rules.” Er, actually all we have is your word that everything you are carrying is legal. The point is, the Official We have no reason accept your word until we search you and confirm that this is so. So, turn 'em out. Hey, I don’t think that there will be all that many cases where someone will be arrested on bogus charges based on a ‘random’ search, but this is a country where a 12-year old girl was once arrested and handcuffed for the crime of eating a french fry on the Washington metro, and but I firmly believe, as has been the case so far with air travel, that large numbers of people will be subjected to official harassment, delay, and humiliation as a result of these policies. I already said I wouldn’t resist it, but I don’t have to like it. BTW, all this (random bag checks, armed soldiers in stations, “Your papers, please”) in went on in France in the mid-90s during a wave of transport bombings by an Algerian militant group,and it was just as much theatre as in NYC; the group was finally rounded up not because of random bag checks, but through actual investigative police work. So far as I know, same for the Madrid bombings. I anxiously await news as to whether the guy they shot on the London Tube this morning actually had anything to do with the recent bombings, was just freaked out by the armed cops or was maybe involed in some other, unrelated criminal activity. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/105 "2005-07-22T16:02:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As it happens, I’m about to go buy a toy after work today, so I have $1100. Hopefully not one of those illegal sex toys. It would be really embarrassing if it got confiscated. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/106 "2005-07-22T16:09:05Z")
> [@JohnBckWLD](#): > > My support for random searches on the trains gelled last Friday evening – less than 2 weeks after the 1st London attack. There was this tall, caucasian male lugging what appeared to be a very heavy, five-gallon bucket on his shoulder. It definitely contained something; he appeared to be quite uncomfortable as he struggled along carrying that unmarked pail. He exited his LIRR commuter train at track 18, walked through Penn Station to the 8th Ave Subway & boarded the C Train uptown to 86th St. On his journey, in Penn Station alone, he walked by at least 30 NYPD officers, a dozen soldiers with semi automatic weapons and a handful of german shepherds. **Not once** did a conductor on the LIRR, any peace officer or NYC transit employee stop him and ask what was in that large heavy bucket; for all anyone knew, he could have been carrying 70 pounds of liquid explosives as he went along his business completely unmolested. In fact, for some inexplicable reason, his cell phone even worked under the East River tunnel. I don’t know much about bombs; but if those four Pakastanis in the UK were able to cause such mayhem with their little napsacks, this son-of-bitch, with that big heavy pail, coulda blown the roof right off of Madison Square Garden - or created the Columbus Circle Crater. Blah blah blah, yet nothing happened now did it? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/107 "2005-07-22T16:11:31Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > Well **Bricker** , some of us mere mortals can and do screw up…you may be willing to trust your liberty to anyone with a badge or a uniform; secure in the knowlegde that you are protected by the purity of your laws; we lesser beings aren’t so sure of our standing. And remember, the people doing the searching are part of the same police force that arrested 1806 people during last year’s Republican National Convention, only to have over 90% of the cases dismissed or the accused found not guilty. In over 400 instances, these cases were dropped when video evidence directly contradicted police statements, and some cops were found to be outright lying. This is the same police force where an officer described arresting a protestor, who then had to be carried, kicking and screaming, to the waiting police van. And where video evidence later proved that the protestor in question had walked calmly under his own steam, and that the police officer in question was not even present at this man’s arrest. And where further evidence showed that this police officer had not even been present at the arrests of four other protestors against whom he signed complaints. And this is the same city where the prosecutor’s office edited videotape to excise exculpatory material demonstrating that a protestor accused of resisting arrest and pushing his bicycle into a line of police officers was actually acting peacefully. This tampering only came to light after a third party obtained a cpopy of the original tape and gave it to the defendant. Charges were then dismissed. no word on whether the tamperers or the lying cops ever faced any disciplinary action. The story is [here](http://boston.indymedia.org/otherpress/display/965/index.php). (For those worried about the source, i’ll point out that exactly the same information appeared in the _New York Times_ on April 12 of this year, but the story has been archived and is only available [for purchase](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F00D11FB395A0C718DDDAD0894DD404482).) So, **Bricker** , in answer to your question, it seems that at least some members of the NYPD are happy to find whatever excuse they feel like to arrest someone they want to arrest. It appears that, for some of these people, the fact that you haven’t actually broken any law is merely incidental. And put me on record agreeing with the OP. I think this measure is little more than window dressing. Of course, it’s also one of those measures where the people who support it really can’t lose. If there are no terrorist attacks, they will stand there smugly and say, “See, we told you it would work,” And if there \*are \* terrorist attacks, they will stand there self-righteously and say, “This only shows that we need to take even stronger measures.” ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/108 "2005-07-22T16:13:11Z")
I live in London. I ride the tube twice every single weekday, and usually weekends too. The tube bombs a fortnight ago were a short walk from my flat, my office and my girlfriend’s university, respectively. I have a fair idea of some of the issues here. This is a dumb idea. Why? 1 Because, as has been pointed out, a determined bomber can easily get round this. 2 Even if they can’t, they will just move on to the next most attractive target. In which case, you start guarding the next target on the list, searching people etc. Repeat 1 and 2 endlessly, until you get to the situation you currently have in Israel, where guards stop and pat you down before you can go into a pizza parlour or a nightclub and people STILL get killed by suicide bombers. This is a discussion about Terrorism. Terrorism is not about killing everyone, it is about scaring people. Making them ‘terrified’ to go about their daily lives. Killing lots of people is a handy way of doing that, but what do you think al-Quaeda would rather have? 3000 dead people and the rest of the country going about their business 50 dead people and the entire population cowering in front of their TVs at home, too afraid to go out to work, dinner, church, baseball, etc. because they might get blown up? Begging their leaders to do anything which will make the bombs stop? Currently we have cops standing around every single tube station in full uniform, high-vis vests, the lot. I suppose if there was a blast, and they survived, they might help with first aid or crowd control, but from a security perspective they add about as much value as a chocolate teapot. Searches fall into the same category - a pallative for the gullible. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/109 "2005-07-22T16:14:49Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Er, actually all we have is your word that everything you are carrying is legal. The point is, the Official We have no reason accept your word until we search you and confirm that this is so. So, turn 'em out. That may be your point. That wasn’t the point I was responding to. The point I was responding to was the claim that if the police search closely enough, they will find something, because there are so many laws that everyone is a lawbreaker of some kind. I disagreed with that point. I **agree** that such intrusive searches would be bad, but **not** for the reason that they would inevitably uncover something illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/110 "2005-07-22T16:18:07Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > Well **Bricker** , some of us mere mortals can and do screw up…you may be willing to trust your liberty to anyone with a badge or a uniform; secure in the knowlegde that you are protected by the purity of your laws; we lesser beings aren’t so sure of our standing. Give me an example. How can you “screw up”? Are you really claiming you’re so unsure about the law that you are afraid of accidentally violating it by something you might innocently carry on your person? I don’t believe it, but I’m willing to learn. Educate me. ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/111 "2005-07-22T16:29:46Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > And yet, nothing exploded and no one was hurt, except for that poor schlub maybe having thrown out his back… Well, actually the back’s good & with the exception of a bruised clavicle, all’s fine. > [@](#): > > Anyway, there was nothing in particular holding back all those soldiers and cops from stopping and searching Bucket Dude’s bucket, random search directive or no; so why didn’t they, do you think? And how does this demonstrate that random, arbitrary searches would be more effective? I’m not seeing it. News reports about the random searches on trains & buses is all everyone’s talking about. It’s all you hear in cubicles, the street & the water cooler. Within a day or two, I imagine most everyone in the entire NYC metropolitan region will have knowledge of the new policy. I’ll concede the point random searches may not prevent a tragedy from occuring - but the policy, as I see it, should have a _deterrent effect_. Had that bucket not been filled with acrylic stucco - and instead was some type of explosive device - I can’t fathom finding many volunteers who would willingly attempt to get it past such a hardened target. On a completely different note, though I can’t find a cite, according to NPR, there’s a small but growing movement within London to restrict passengers from carrying most bags and packages aboard the Met. I actually heard a London Bureau chief on the radio this morning say ‘Thank God for Closed-Circuit TV’. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/112 "2005-07-22T16:29:50Z")
[quote=1. Find me an incident in which the cops confiscated money without any evidence of drug involvement – just the fact that there was a large quantity of money.[/quote] Easy, Waco. One of the reasons the feds were attempting to serve a warrant on Koresh was for operating an alleged meth lab in the compound. (I won’t go into the how this totally bogus claim got on the warrant in the first place as I don’t think it is germane, but the allegations were made by a Australian blind guy Koresh had kicked out of the cult for his own drug use). In any case, after the fire of 4/19/03, the feds hauled away from Mt. Carmel a safe which had survived the fire containing $50,000 in cash and an undetermined quantity of gold and platinum claiming it was “drug money,” even though there was ample evidence that there was no drug activity at Mt. Carmel at the time. Not only was none of this returned to its rightful owners, but the feds shortly after confiscating it, “lost” it. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/113 "2005-07-22T16:34:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 1. Find me a New York local puritan law that forbids POSSESSION of “sex appliances”. In fact, I’ll be generous: find me any such law; forget that we’re talking about New York. Better watch out how many dildos you’re carrying if you’re in Texas: > [@Texas penal code](#): > > (7) “Obscene device” means a device including a dildo or artificial vagina, designed or marketed as useful primarily for the stimulation of human genital organs. > [@Texas penal code](#): > > (c) A person commits an offense if, knowing its content and character, he: (1) promotes or possesses with intent to promote any obscene material or obscene device; or (2) produces, presents, or directs an obscene performance or participates in a portion thereof that is obscene or that contributes to its obscenity. > (d) Except as provided by Subsection (h), an offense under Subsection (c) is a Class A misdemeanor. > (e) A person who promotes or wholesale promotes obscene material or an obscene device or possesses the same with intent to promote or wholesale promote it in the course of his business is presumed to do so with knowledge of its content and character. > (f) A person who possesses six or more obscene devices or identical or similar obscene articles is presumed to possess them with intent to promote the same. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/114 "2005-07-22T16:34:43Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Repeat 1 and 2 endlessly, until you get to the situation you currently have in Israel, where guards stop and pat you down before you can go into a pizza parlour or a nightclub and people STILL get killed by suicide bombers. Except, in Israel, you also read frequently about suicide bombers who were stopped by alert security guards outside busses, restaurants, checkpoints, etc. Bus drivers have also refused to let suspicious people on, who’ve turned out to be “rigged.” They’re either arrested, or they set off their bombs prematurely, killing a lot fewer people than they’d planned (sometimes only themselves). ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/115 "2005-07-22T16:34:48Z")
I think **MHendo** and **Slaphead** have made the most sane posts in this thread. Until we take steps to address the root of the problem, any band-aids we slap on will be in vain. AQ won’t hit spain again, discuss. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/116 "2005-07-22T16:35:39Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Easy, Waco. > > One of the reasons the feds were attempting to serve a warrant on Koresh was for operating an alleged meth lab in the compound. (I won’t go into the how this totally bogus claim got on the warrant in the first place as I don’t think it is germane, but the allegations were made by a Australian blind guy Koresh had kicked out of the cult for his own drug use). In any case, after the fire of 4/19/03, the feds hauled away from Mt. Carmel a safe which had survived the fire containing $50,000 in cash and an undetermined quantity of gold and platinum claiming it was “drug money,” even though there was ample evidence that there was no drug activity at Mt. Carmel at the time. Not only was none of this returned to its rightful owners, but the feds shortly after confiscating it, “lost” it. A problem fixed by the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/117 "2005-07-22T16:39:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > 1. Find me an incident in which the cops confiscated money without any evidence of drug involvement – just the fact that there was a large quantity of money. [Took about ten seconds. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > When Willie Jones, a Nashville landscaper, paid cash for an airline ticket, city police suspected him of being a drug dealer. They searched him, found no drugs, but seized the $9,000 he was planning to bring on his flight to Houston to buy shrubs for his business. It took Jones two years and a federal lawsuit to get his money back… > > In 1993, Chicago police, acting on a tip from a burglary suspect, searched the family-owned Congress Pizzeria looking for stolen property. They found none. But they did find $506,231 in cash, which they promptly seized from owner Anthony Lombardo. The government later argued that it should be allowed to keep Lombardo’s money because he must have been involved in narcotics trafficking since most people don’t have that kind of cash lying around. It was Lombardo’s burden to prove otherwise. In 1997, a federal appeals court issued a stinging criticism of the government’s conduct in this case and ordered the money returned… > [@Bricker](#): > > 1. Find me a New York local puritan law that forbids POSSESSION of “sex appliances”. In fact, I’ll be generous: find me any such law; forget that we’re talking about New York. [URL=]Took thirty seconds, but only because I had to demonstrate the error of your assumption that this quibble would save your argument. Alas, you forgot about the magic of mathematics, whereby the right number can transmogrify “possession” into “intent to distribute”]([Civil Asset Forfeiture - Reason.com](http://reason.com/bi/bi-forf.shtml)) > [@Texas Penal Code](#): > > (7) “Obscene device” means a device including a dildo[0] > or artificial vagina, designed or marketed as useful primarily for > the stimulation of human genital organs… > > (f) A person who possesses six or more obscene devices or > identical or similar obscene articles is presumed to possess them > with intent to promote the same. > [@Bricker](#): > > 1. I didn’t mention “watch lists,” and I have no idea what they are. However, if a book is not _per se_ illegal - obscene, for instance - it does not become illegal by inclusion on any list. Cite for the contrary proposition, please. Huh? Unless my monitor is playing tricks on me, there is an explicit mention of “watch lists” in your Post#50. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/118 "2005-07-22T16:42:10Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > So, **Bricker** , in answer to your question, it seems that at least some members of the NYPD are happy to find whatever excuse they feel like to arrest someone they want to arrest. It appears that, for some of these people, the fact that you haven’t actually broken any law is merely incidental. So what? Your story indicates that there are cops that will act in violation of the law and established NYPD policy. Why is it relevant what policy we put it place, then? According to that story, these cops are willing to ignore whatever rules exist. So a discussion about what rules should exist is utterly irrelevant to the problem presented by the cops in the story you offer. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/119 "2005-07-22T16:45:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So what? > > Your story indicates that there are cops that will act in violation of the law and established NYPD policy. > > Why is it relevant what policy we put it place, then? According to that story, these cops are willing to ignore whatever rules exist. So a discussion about what rules should exist is utterly irrelevant to the problem presented by the cops in the story you offer. By this reasoning, we might as well just have anarchy, since some people will ignore whatever laws exist. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545/120 "2005-07-22T16:48:25Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > You might be happy to do it, but yes, you’re trading in liberty. In reality, yes. But what does peace of mind and the feeling of safe travel cost? I like to think of it as trading liberties, not giving any up. I trade the right not to be searched (where are we granted that right anyway?) for the right to travel safely, or at least _think_ I’m traveling safely. It’s a wash. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/random-searches-on-the-new-york-subway/313545.md?page=7)