# Rank Hypocrisy over Guantanamo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 1, 2014, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754 "2014-06-01T06:18:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/61 "2014-06-01T17:27:33Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is hypocrisy to save one of your own at high cost and still detain a citizen of one of your allies. That’s not hypocrisy. > [@](#): > > If it were an American illegally detained by Britain we would never hear the end of it. That’s not hypocrisy, either. The US government’s primary responsibility is to look out for the interests of its citizens. It certainly CAN look out for the interest of British subjects, but it needn’t do so. You might call it being a not-so-good ally, but it’s not hypocritical. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/62 "2014-06-01T17:28:47Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The hypocrisy is that the person responsible for the current detention and daily torture of a British protected Person is celebrating the release of an American at the risk of five senior Taliban going free for political purposes, but will not release someone he is detaining and torturing illegally. Would you be happier if nobody had been released? That would have been a consistent policy and there wouldn’t have been any of this “hypocrisy” you keep focusing on. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/63 "2014-06-01T17:31:44Z")
If anyone’s at fault, it’s the British government for not making enough of a fuss. And that’s not Stands with a Fist, that’s President Laura Roslin in what appears to be a summit meeting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/64 "2014-06-01T17:32:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Regarding torture, I am a nurse and have had to forcibly pass a gastro-enteric feeding tube and no that without justification it is tantamount to torture. So you’re confessing that you personally have committed the same torture that you’re now condemning other people for? I think it’s terrible when people apply a different standard to others than they apply to themselves. There’s probably a word for that kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/65 "2014-06-01T17:34:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not hypocrisy. > That’s not hypocrisy, either. > > The US government’s primary responsibility is to look out for the interests of its citizens. It certainly CAN look out for the interest of British subjects, but it needn’t do so. You might call it being a not-so-good ally, but it’s not hypocritical. But the US is the detaining power and torturer of the Brit, yet moans about the capture of one of its own. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/66 "2014-06-01T17:37:52Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So you’re confessing that you personally have committed the same torture that you’re now condemning other people for? > > I think it’s terrible when people apply a different standard to others than they apply to themselves. There’s probably a word for that kind of thing. The person was detained under the mental health act and was likely to die soon. She was psychotic and unable to make rational decisions. She recovered and eventually was very grateful. I doubt that that will be the case where the feeding is merely to avoid the embarrassment of deaths at American hands. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/67 "2014-06-01T17:41:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If anyone’s at fault, it’s the British government for not making enough of a fuss. > > And that’s not Stands with a Fist, that’s President Laura Roslin in what appears to be a summit meeting. That is warped. How much more insistent should an ally be than making it known publicly that you have formally requested your putative ally to release your citizen as they have assessed there is no real evidence against him, and that is refused. This sort of behaviour gives the US a bad name with its allies, and even more so with its enemies. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/68 "2014-06-01T17:43:39Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > But the US is the detaining power and torturer of the Brit, yet moans about the capture of one of its own. That’s not torture and that’s not hypocrisy. Not everything a country does that is “bad” is hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/69 "2014-06-01T17:48:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s not torture and that’s not hypocrisy. > > Not everything a country does that is “bad” is hypocrisy. As noted above most international humanitarian agencies consider it to be torture. Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. If you cannot see why this plies in this case, then you are truly without a moral compass. Let me make the hypocrisy clear: 1/ We must keep that low level Brit in Gitmo for the safety of the world 2/ We must release these five high value detainees for political advantage. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/70 "2014-06-01T18:06:14Z")
Your cites never used the term “torture”. If there is hypocrisy here, it’s when we say we don’t negotiate with terrorists, and then we go and negotiate with terrorists. > [@](#): > > Let me make the hypocrisy clear: > > 1/ We must keep that low level Brit in Gitmo for the safety of the world > > 2/ We must release these five high value detainees for political advantage. We don’t say either of those 2 things. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/71 "2014-06-01T22:19:48Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is hypocrisy to save one of your own at high cost and still detain a citizen of one of your allies. > > If it were an American illegally detained by Britain we would never hear the end of it. I don’t think you understand what hypocrisy is. If the UK offered five high-level American captives for Aamer’s release and we said no, THEN we’d be hypocrites. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2014, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/72 "2014-06-01T22:26:22Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t think you understand what hypocrisy is. > > If the UK offered five high-level American captives for Aamer’s release and we said no, THEN we’d be hypocrites. Are you sure you understand what hypocrisy is? Being a hypocrite is saying one thing, and doing something contradictory. In your hypothetical we’d be inconsistent, but not necessarily hypocritical. We’d be hypocrites if the UK traded some terror suspects for a UK subject, the US criticized them for doing so, and then turned around and did the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/73 "2014-06-02T00:44:12Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It’s even worse when Israel does it. At least Bergdahl’s _alive_. What’s wrong with Israel doing that? If they want to trade 1200 prisoners for an Israeli with either Hamas or Hezbollah who are we to be upset with them for that? ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/74 "2014-06-02T01:00:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Intrigued by a film character rather than Torture and Detention, Hostage Taking and Separation from family. Or the hypocrisy. > > Must be some definition of shallow there. Or you just do not want to comment on the morality of the matter. You know, sometimes not being humourless can actually help your cause. Sincerely, Smiles A Lot ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/75 "2014-06-02T01:06:48Z")
_Washte_! ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/76 "2014-06-02T02:05:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > But the US is the detaining power and torturer of the Brit, yet moans about the capture of one of its own. He’s not a Brit. And since you asked up thread, Americans don’t think of green card holders as fellow Americans. It’s just visa category. We don’t have any responsibility or commitment to them, or they to us, aside from paying their taxes and obeying the law. If a Saudi green card holder gets arrested for littering while on vacation in Singapore, Americans would tell him to take it up with his own country’s embassy. There are a lot of good reasons to shut down Guantanamo, and either try or release everybody in the joint, but none of those reasons are being discussed in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/77 "2014-06-02T04:21:29Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > He’s not a Brit. > > And since you asked up thread, Americans don’t think of green card holders as fellow Americans. It’s just visa category. We don’t have any responsibility or commitment to them, or they to us, aside from paying their taxes and obeying the law. If a Saudi green card holder gets arrested for littering while on vacation in Singapore, Americans would tell him to take it up with his own country’s embassy. > > There are a lot of good reasons to shut down Guantanamo, and either try or release everybody in the joint, but none of those reasons are being discussed in this thread. He is a British Protected Person. The British Government is demanding that he be released as he is a British Responsibility under international Law having been given full residence status. He has a British wife and British children. Britain is full of people who do not hold full British Nationality but have the rights of residence and citizenship; most even enjoy all civil liberties including a limited franchise. The American model of green card/citizen is not the only one. If in the eyes of Her Britannic Majesty as our passports say, he is a british protected person, he is a Brit. Your havering has no effect on that and is merely an excuse to justify detention and torture. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/78 "2014-06-02T04:22:34Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > You know, sometimes not being humourless can actually help your cause. > > Sincerely, > > Smiles A Lot I just feel that illegal detention and torture are a serious issue. Others obviously do not. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/79 "2014-06-02T05:27:54Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > He is a British Protected Person with a British Wife and Brish children (one of whom he has never seen); this is equivalent of a Green Card Holder with the virtually automatic right to British Citizenhip through marriage and residence. The British Government (your allies remember) have repeatedly publicly asked for his release so that he can return to live in the UK. The US continues to detain and torture him. > > Excuse me if my celebrations of the release of the US hostage are less than fulsome. You seem more concerned about this British fellow than you are about everyone else still held at Gitmo. Hypocrisy? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754/80 "2014-06-02T06:05:35Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I just feel that illegal detention and torture are a serious issue. Others obviously do not. Well, none of us have ever committed torture. So we may not feel the same personal connection that you feel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rank-hypocrisy-over-guantanamo/689754.md?page=5)