# Ranked Choice Voting in ME-02 **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 13, 2018, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460 "2018-11-13T15:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/61 "2018-11-27T02:28:17Z")
So, if the overseas voters turn out to be enough to give someone a full majority on the first ballot, does the run-off just get thrown out? ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/62 "2018-11-27T13:15:42Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > I wish I could say that I had “dreamed up” the scenario…but I didn’t. It was dreamed up by Southern white Democrats, Southern white _racist_ Democrats, who used it many times over the course of many years to blunt the impact of black votes. It was most common in primaries, and I’ll admit that with changing voter demographics it is not as impactful as it was. But the current MS senate race shows that its impact certainly has not disappeared, and if IRV does give rise to more powerful third parties (and if some other present trends continue), you’ll see it happening again. > > For the whole sordid history of requiring a majority in the Southeast, it’s worth checking out [https://scholarship.law.unc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=3068&context=nclr](https://scholarship.law.unc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=3068&context=nclr). The thrust of the article is given away in the title: “The Primary Runoff: Racism’s Reprieve.” Okay, it’s a long and detailed study, and no one’s going to read it, so here are a few highlights: > > –During most of the twentieth century, black candidates (along with female candidates and white male candidates friendly to black voters) frequently won pluralities in the Democratic primaries against 2, 3, 4, or more other candidates (largely white men with segregationist platforms), but then were defeated in head-to-head competition due to the 50% requirement. > > –Along with at-large districts, in which city or county candidates were elected by everyone rather than being elected by ward or district, runoffs were widely considered a great way of keeping black candidates from being elected. > > –A 1982 amendment to the Voting Rights Act (remember that act? sigh) listed a number of factors which would strongly suggest that states were working hard to dilute the votes of minorities, and one of these was the use of “majority vote requirements.” > > –In Southern states, “many minorities have been defeated in runoffs against white opponents who finished second in the initial primary.” – p. 382 > > –“…the runoff dilutes black political power; second primaries are an essential component of the obstacles keeping blacks out of political office in the South.” – p. 386 > > There’s plenty more, but just typing all this makes me pissy. Check out the article. Or don’t, but please, at least be aware that requiring a 50% majority vote to elect a candidate has been used many, many times in the history of this nation to defeat minority candidates and silence those who vote for them. It’s a potential danger with any kind of runoff, instant included. --As I say, I’d be delighted to admit I’d dreamed up some outlandish, even impossible scenario. But I didn’t. An overall better system doesn’t always give us the outcome we want. There are other solutions to the problem of minority representation. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/63 "2018-11-27T13:26:18Z")
Yeah, that’s even been [proven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrow%27s_impossibility_theorem). ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/64 "2018-11-27T13:51:33Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > An overall better system doesn’t always give us the outcome we want. There are other solutions to the problem of minority representation. Indeed. And trying to give us “the outcome we want” has its own pitfalls. e.g. the creation of “minority majority” districts getting gamed to then gerrymander the minorities into as few districts as possible. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2018, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/65 "2018-11-28T04:32:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Republican Sen. Cindy Hyde-Smith has won Mississippi’s Senate runoff, defeating Democrat Mike Espy after drawing intense scrutiny for comments during the four-week runoff campaign. > > Hyde-Smith had 54 percent of the vote to Espy’s 46 percent with 95 percent of precincts reporting after the Associated Press called the race. The result means Republicans will hold a 53-47 majority in the Senate next year, and it makes Hyde-Smith the first woman elected to represent Mississippi in the Senate. She will have to run for reelection to a full term in 2020, after being appointed to fill Thad Cochran’s seat earlier this year. [https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/27/mississippi-senate-runoff-espy-hyde-smith-1021285](https://www.politico.com/story/2018/11/27/mississippi-senate-runoff-espy-hyde-smith-1021285) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2018, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/66 "2018-12-13T18:30:05Z")
I think this is relevant to the thread: [Judge tosses lawsuit by GOP congressman who lost election](https://www.apnews.com/646e23e07a3a4f63b26e6af8ef392e68): > [@](#): > > The judge said he failed to see how Maine’s candidate-ranking system undercut voters’ First Amendment rights “in any fashion.” The system, he said, was “motivated by a desire to enable third-party and non-party candidates to participate in the political process, and to enable their supporters to express support, without producing the spoiler effect.” > > The new method of voting “actually encourages First Amendment expression, without discriminating against any voter based on viewpoint, faction or other invalid criteria,” said Walker, a judge with the U.S. District Court in Bangor. > > Walker rejected Poliquin’s arguments that ranked balloting gives some voters more expression than others or proves too confusing for the average voter. Even when votes cast for trailing candidates were reassigned, Walker said, all votes “remained and were counted.” > > “The point is that ‘one person, one vote’ does not stand in opposition to ranked balloting, so long as all electors are treated equally at the ballot” Walker said. > [@](#): > > “I am not persuaded that it is unduly burdensome for voters to educate themselves about the candidates in order to determine the best way to rank their preferences,” Walker said. > > The judge said the U.S. Constitution is “perfectly silent” on how states must elect federal representations, and noted other states require election by majority. Critics can question the wisdom of ranked-choice voting, Walker said, but such criticism “falls short of constitutional impropriety,” Walker said. > > “The Constitution does not require an easy ballot,” Walker said. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2018, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/67 "2018-12-14T17:39:52Z")
[Poliquin dropped his recount request](https://www.apnews.com/bc2f6cd0f82c42aea955de988191d377); it’s over. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/68 "2018-12-17T16:23:57Z")
[A piece in the American Prospect](https://prospect.org/article/maine%E2%80%99s-ranked-choice-voting-experiment-continues) said that roughly 35% of the independent voters (defined as neither Democrat nor Republican) chose not to rank either of the main parties’ candidates (as their alternative choices). I wonder why voters might do that and I wonder how many ballots for the two major party candidates also failed to make second or third choices. Btw, they call those “exhausted” ballots. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2018, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/69 "2018-12-17T21:50:02Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > [A piece in the American Prospect](https://prospect.org/article/maine%E2%80%99s-ranked-choice-voting-experiment-continues) said that roughly 35% of the independent voters (defined as neither Democrat nor Republican) chose not to rank either of the main parties’ candidates (as their alternative choices). I wonder why voters might do that and I wonder how many ballots for the two major party candidates also failed to make second or third choices. Btw, they call those “exhausted” ballots. For the “why”, I would presume because they were voting honestly. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/70 "2018-12-28T22:54:28Z")
[Maine governor deems congressional election ‘stolen’ while certifying result](https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/28/politics/maine-governor-certifies-congressional-election/index.html) > [@](#): > > But, LePage – a Republican firebrand – made one last jab at the drawn-out process when certifying the election, writing the words “stolen election” next to his signature. What a pile of anti-democracy bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2018, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/71 "2018-12-28T23:04:33Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > [Maine governor deems congressional election ‘stolen’ while certifying result](https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/28/politics/maine-governor-certifies-congressional-election/index.html) > > What a pile of anti-democracy bullshit. And this comes from a guy who won his elections by a plurality in two 3 way races. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2018, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/72 "2018-12-29T22:55:24Z")
Par for the course for that guy. What an ass. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/73 "2018-12-30T03:48:09Z")
When does Janet Mills take over? I assume some time in early January. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/74 "2018-12-30T04:16:46Z")
Senators, Representatives and Delegates whose election has been certified for the 116th Congress are to be sworn in on 3 January 2019 ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/75 "2018-12-30T18:10:54Z")
Well she’s governor elect of Maine so that doesn’t really answer the question. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/76 "2018-12-30T19:10:25Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Well she’s governor elect of Maine so that doesn’t really answer the question. Her inauguration takes place on January 2, according to [this](https://www.pressherald.com/2018/12/22/governor-elect-mills-invites-public-to-inauguration/): > [@](#): > > Gov.-elect Janet Mills has invited the public to her inauguration Jan. 2 at the Augusta Civic Center. So, yes, your guess of ‘early January’ was spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/77 "2018-12-30T19:17:56Z")
TY ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2018, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/78 "2018-12-30T23:25:13Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Well she’s governor elect of Maine so that doesn’t really answer the question. Ack. Got so hung up in the whole ME-02 thing that I completely ignored the question was about another race.:smack::o ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2018, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/79 "2018-12-31T04:03:59Z")
No problem. Honestly, I should have just looked it up for myself. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460/80 "2020-09-01T16:54:18Z")
Bumped. A ranked-choice voting lawsuit is on a fast track in Maine. Excerpted from the Portland _Press Herald_, Sept. 1, 2020: The state’s highest court is moving quickly on a case that will determine whether Maine voters make history in November by using ranked-choice voting in the presidential election. The Maine Supreme Judicial Court will hear oral arguments Thursday on a case that pits the Maine Republican Party against Secretary of State Matt Dunlap, a Democrat, who is appealing a lower court ruling. The high court will have until Sept. 24 to make a ruling. At stake is whether a people’s veto initiative asking Maine voters if they want to use ranked choice in presidential primary and general elections will appear on the November ballot. The clock is also ticking for Dunlap, who needs to prepare statewide ballots in time for printing and distribution to absentee voters, who are expected to participate in record numbers to reduce their risk of contracting COVID-19. Attorneys for Dunlap and the Maine Republican Party filed their respective responses with the high court Monday. If the court allows the question to appear on the ballot, ranked choice would not be used for the race between President Trump, Democratic nominee Joe Biden and three other candidates. If the high court rules in favor of Dunlap, the veto question would not appear on the November ballot and voters would be allowed to rank their choices for president. Maine, one of only two states to split its Electoral College votes by congressional district, awards one vote to the winner of each of its two districts and two votes for the statewide winner. In 2016, Maine split its electoral votes for the first time since 1988 when the 2nd Congressional District voted for Trump by a 10-point margin, but Democrat Hillary Clinton won the 1st District and the statewide race. This year, five candidates appear on the ballot, including Trump, Biden, the Green Party’s Howard Hawkins, the Libertarian Party’s Jo Jorgensen and the Alliance Party’s Rocky De La Fuente. That could spell trouble for Trump if he isn’t preferred over Biden by voters whose top pick is a third-party candidate. Maine’s ranked-choice system has now twice been endorsed by voters statewide but has been rejected by 2nd District voters. Maine uses ranked choice in legislative and gubernatorial primaries as well as congressional primary and general elections. The system will also be used for the first time in a U.S. Senate race in November. Incumbent Republican Sen. Susan Collins is running against Maine House Speaker Sara Gideon, a Democrat, Green Party candidate Lisa Savage and independent Max Linn. The system allows, but doesn’t require, voters to rank candidates in descending preference. If no candidate wins more than 50 percent of the vote in the first round of tabulation the candidate with the fewest votes is eliminated, and their voters’ second choices are reallocated to the remaining field. This continues until one candidate has more than 50 percent of the votes. The system has withstood repeated challenges in federal court. Most recently, a federal judge in Bangor again rejected a legal challenge by the Republican Party to its use in the U.S. Senate race in Maine and the party chose not to appeal. Last week, the Maine Republican Party got its first legal victory when a Cumberland County Superior Court justice overturned Dunlap’s determination that the people’s[veto effort did not collect enough valid voter signatures to place it on the ballot](https://www.pressherald.com/2020/08/13/maine-secretary-of-state-reaffirms-decision-to-disqualify-ranked-choice-petitions/?rel=related). Just under 1,000 signatures had been rejected because they were collected by circulators who were not registered to vote when they were collecting signatures, which is required under the Maine Constitution. Leaning heavily on a prior U.S. Supreme Court decision, Cumberland County Superior Court Justice Thomas McKeon ruled that Maine’s constitution was in conflict with the U.S. Constitution and that the requirement that circulators be registered voters violated the circulators’ 1st Amendment rights. But Dunlap’s office pointed to a state Supreme Judicial Court precedent that had rejected a similar appeal based on the same federal case McKeon had cited. Dunlap’s appeal, filed by Assistant Attorney General Phyllis Gardiner, noted that a federal court had found in 1999 that Maine’s requirement that circulators be registered voters was not in conflict with the U.S. Constitution. Gardiner also notes that the Maine Republican Party did not argue or show it had any difficulty in finding registered voters to serve as petition circulators. “They successfully engaged a total of 543 circulators, only 10 of whom were found to be unregistered at the time they collected signatures,” she wrote. Gardiner also noted McKeon made a factual error in not rejecting signatures that were duplicates or signatures of people who were not registered to vote. Even if the high court agrees that the petitions from unregistered circulators were allowed to stand, the people’s veto backers would still be 22 signatures short of the number needed to put the question on the ballot. But in his response, Patrick Strawbridge, the attorney for the Maine Republicans, argued that court rules allowing for an automatic stay of a superior court justice’s decision while a case is being appealed do not apply in this case. Strawbridge, who has also served as Trump’s attorney in cases before the U.S. Supreme Court, also contended that both the Committee for Ranked Choice Voting and Dunlap are now attempting to introduce new evidence that was not in question during McKeon’s deliberations. He also argues that allowing the veto question to move forward does not cause any harm, and that keeping the question off the ballot this close to the election would likely add to voter confusion. “Their claim for irreparable harm is weak, given that the Superior Court’s order at most simply maintains the longstanding status quo for Presidential elections in Maine,” Strawbridge wrote. “And the competing harms are great, given that a stay would deny the Appellees the ability to exercise their fundamental right to place the veto before the people of this state within the timeline mandated by the Maine Constitution.” Dunlap’s appeal asks the Law Court to stay the lower court decision and allow his decision to stand, leaving the people’s veto question off the ballot in November. The court is likely to act earlier than Sept. 24 given that the ballot needs to printed in time to be sent to absentee voters by Oct. 3… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranked-choice-voting-in-me-02/824460.md?page=3)