# Ranking of most powerful DC and Marvel characters? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 21, 2001, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672 "2001-10-21T04:05:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/41 "2001-10-23T20:03:01Z")
I don’t think we’re giving enough attention to the Endless here. Death Destiny, Dream, Desire, Despair…they’ve pretty much got the tools and the talent to manipulate or destroy all the (DC) characters named thus far. I’m not sure offhand how they’d measure up against the Living Tribunal or other such Marvel characters; were the Endless ever mentioned in the Amalgam Universe blendings? And **rjung** , they were a dime. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/42 "2001-10-24T00:19:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fiver \* > **I don’t think we’re giving enough attention to the Endless here. Death Destiny, Dream, Desire, Despair…they’ve pretty much got the tools and the talent to manipulate or destroy all the (DC) characters named thus far.** Agreed. I mean, the DC universe includes an anthropomorphic personification of Death itself. She even takes gods when “their time comes.” If you somehow managed to kill her, another aspect of Death would appear. An that’s a \big\ “if”. I mean, what’s someone like Superman going to do? Defeat Death itself in hand-to-hand combat? ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/43 "2001-10-24T02:04:23Z")
On the other hand, the replacement Endless don’t neccessarily have the same agendas as their predecessors. Daniel-Dream and Morpheus-Dream are very different beasts. And, of course, _lesser_ beings can kill or entrap them surprisingly easily. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/44 "2001-10-24T02:44:32Z")
Ok, digging into geekitude as it’s never been geeked before. Death (DC’s, or rather Gainman’s) is Death of this universe. Her famous line is “…and when the last sentient being dies and the universe ends, I’ll be there to put up the chairs on the tables and turn out the lights” implying that she’s not the Death of other universes. The Living Tribunal is in charge of ALL the universes. He’s certainly in charge of Marvel’s Death (the skeleton chick that Thanos is fixated on (Gainman’s Death is _such_ a better character!). Death and Eternity are as close as you can get to God of the Marvel Universe. Probably more powerful (if such words apply) than a “mere” anthropomorphic personification. If the Living Tribunal can boss all the godlike-beings in the Marvel Multiverse around, I’ve gotta say that in a cage match, he’d be tougher than DC’s Death. I think he could easily bottle her up in such a way as to prevent a sucessor from appearing or even simply abolish the job-position of “Death”. It wouldn’t be a good story, mind you, but I calls 'em as I sees 'em. That said, except for the first Living Tribunal story, I can’t imagine ever wanting to read a LT story instead of a Death story (especially if the Death story was by Neil Gainman!) Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/45 "2001-10-24T03:00:33Z")
**Fenris** : > [@](#): > > Death (DC’s, or rather Gainman’s) is Death of this universe. Her famous line is “…and when the last sentient being dies and the universe ends, I’ll be there to put up the chairs on the tables and turn out the lights” implying that she’s not the Death of other universes. Or just as likely, implying that her job extends to overseeing the death OF the universe, meaning this universe, and meaning any other universe that dies, including the Marvel multiverse. She’ll be there when her brothers and sisters die, she’ll be there when the Living Tribunal dies, she’ll even be there when the African-American on skies dies. And you know the name is Gaiman, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/46 "2001-10-24T03:15:31Z")
Well, if we’re going to go into the Endless and other wacky one-off questionable canon characters, I will take **The Saint of Killers** in a straight up fight. C’mon, he walked into heaven and offed the Allmighty. That’s gotta count for something, right? He can’t be stopped, he can’t be controlled and he can’t be manipulated. (DAN PATRICK) You can only hope to contain him (/DAN PATRICK) If on the other hand, we want to stick with non-alterniverse, non-vertigo standard JSA - Avengers DC/Marvel set up, I’d have to go with **The Spectre**. The only character who survived, by himself without any sort of outside help, the end of everything (Zero Hour #0). All time, all universes, the whole enchilada. This would apply strictly to the original Spec-daddy. I can’t vouch for that masked fool running around with the green cape at present. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/47 "2001-10-24T11:25:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JDeMobray \* > \*\*If on the other hand, we want to stick with non-alterniverse, non-vertigo standard JSA - Avengers DC/Marvel set up, I’d have to go with **The Spectre**. The only character who survived, by himself without any sort of outside help, the end of everything (Zero Hour #0). All time, all universes, the whole enchilada. This would apply strictly to the original Spec-daddy. I can’t vouch for that masked fool running around with the green cape at present. \*\* Ah, if survivablilty is what does it, Dr. Ub’x, a techno-sorceror raccoon who fought the Green Lantern Corps survived the Crisis. He’s (as far as I know) the _only_ survivor of the pre-Crisis universe. BTW: **Fiver** : Yeah, Gai"n"man was a typo. But anyway, at one point either Death or Delirium says something like “We’ll only survive as long as this current universe”, didn’t they? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/48 "2001-10-24T11:33:52Z")
**Fenris** : > [@](#): > > Ah, if survivablilty is what does it, Dr. Ub’x, a techno-sorceror raccoon who fought the Green Lantern Corps survived the Crisis. He’s (as far as I know) the _only_ survivor of the pre-Crisis universe. You’re forgetting the Psycho-Pirate. And presumably, the Earth-2 Kal-L and Lois and the Earth-Prime Alex Luthor are still out there in a dimensional pocket somewhere. > [@](#): > > BTW: **Fiver** : But anyway, at one point either Death or Delirium says something like “We’ll only survive as long as this current universe”, didn’t they? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Zaphod\_Beeblebrox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/0ea827/32.png) [@Zaphod\_Beeblebrox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zaphod_Beeblebrox)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/49 "2001-10-24T12:00:32Z")
**Fenris** wrote: > [@](#): > > I didn’t think Superman 2 was all that bad Oh, I rather enjoyed it myself, but that was actually the movie I had in mind when I made the UberWuss reference. When the Kryptonian Trio threw that bus at him, for example. What the…??? The Superman I know wouldn’t let that hurt him. Granted, it was thrown at him by some pretty strong people, but a guy who can build suns and push planets around shouldn’t be hurt by a bus, no matter how hard it’s thrown at him. The bus should have been utterly pulverized upon impact with the Man of Steel. Didn’t that woman even send him flying by hitting him with a street lamp? Huh??? Anyway, I guess I’m nitpicking. ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/50 "2001-10-24T12:33:34Z")
Yes, I suppose you _are_ nitpicking, **Zaphod Beeblebrox**. Just as you would be, if you pointed out that the three Kryptonian criminals shouldn’t have been able to talk to each other on the Moon. You would further be nitpicking if you asked how Clark and Lois, at that time both ordinary humans, made their way back to the United States on foot from the North Pole. And a further example of nitpicking would be if you asked what was the deal with that tractor/repulsor beam thing the female Kryptonian shot out of her finger, in total disregard for any and all powers ever established for Kryptonians in any media. Stop doing that, **Zaphod**. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/51 "2001-10-24T12:35:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fiver \* > \*\ ***Fenris** : > > > [@](#): > > > > Ah, if survivablilty is what does it, Dr. Ub’x, a techno-sorceror raccoon who fought the Green Lantern Corps survived the Crisis. He’s (as far as I know) the _only_ survivor of the pre-Crisis universe. > > You’re forgetting the Psycho-Pirate. And presumably, the Earth-2 Kal-L and Lois and the Earth-Prime Alex Luthor are still out there in a dimensional pocket somewhere.\*\* The Psycho-Pirate remembers the pre-Crisis stuff, but he got “reconfigured” by the Crisis, in other words, when the universe got rebooted around Crisis 10, he got rebooted too. Dr. U’bx jumped from the pre-Crisis to the Post-Crisis universe…He’s the only being who wasn’t part of “the great reboot”…he’s still made up of pre-Crisis atoms, so to speak. And he did it under his own power. On the other hand, he’s shown up…um…twice? Maybe? I’ll check for the Endless quote…it’s somewhere in the second half of the series…something about how “We only last as long as the universe”…I think it’s said to Desire…is this ringing any bells? Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/52 "2001-10-24T12:40:13Z")
Um…I somehow skipped past the Kal-L part… Technically, they were post-Crisis versions, as they were around for the Great Reboot, but that’s nitpicking…I conceed. 😃 But again, Dr. U’bx did it _intentionally_! Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Fiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e274bd/32.png) [@Fiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiver)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/53 "2001-10-24T12:46:59Z")
You’re forgetting about the Psycho-Pirate’s post-Crisis appearances in _Animal Man._ Not only does the 'Pirate seem to recall the pre-Crisis universe, but apparently his mask is the only thing keeping the entire pre-Crisis population of heroes and villains from escaping into the new reality. [sub](Shut up, all of you! I do NOT have a hard-on when I post to this thread!)[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/54 "2001-10-24T13:10:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fiver \* > \*\*You’re forgetting about the Psycho-Pirate’s post-Crisis appearances in _Animal Man._ Not only does the 'Pirate seem to recall the pre-Crisis universe, but apparently his mask is the only thing keeping the entire pre-Crisis population of heroes and villains from escaping into the new reality. \*\* Nope, I’m not. I _loved_ that series. The point I was trying to make is that **anyone** from The Spectre to the Guardians to the Time Trapper to Kal-L, Psycho-Pirate, and all the guys in Psycho-Pirate’s mask… **anyone** who was in the big reboot at the end of Crisis #10(?) got “rebuilt” by the Crisis. Origianally the characters who were in the reboot at the dawn of time (the heroes, mostly) remembered the Pre-Crisis universe (as evidenced by Crisis #11 and #12 where lots of Earth-2 characters, are running around with full knowledge of Earth-2) but everyone else (normal people and villians didn’t. The Psycho-Pirate wasn’t odd because he remembered, He was odd because he was the only _villain_ to remember! Eventually everyone else’s memory faded. The only exception to this was Dr U’bx who made a point of mentioning some of this stuff in GL 201 or 2. Memories notwithstanding, they’re all post-Crisis versions of the pre-Crisis characters. Except Dr U’bx. Y’know…should we take these discussions (which I’m quite enjoying) to MPSIMS, rather than constantly hijacking every comics thread? Whaddaya think? (A resounding “YES” goes up from the assembled denizens of Cafe Society!) Fenris ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2001, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672/55 "2001-10-28T05:01:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phlip \* > \*\*Saltire, > > I am not saying that the hulk got them out of the mountain. He held the mountain up so they could figure a way out. As far as physical manipulation of a mass, I am sure that a mountain range is up there if not the largest. \*\* Of course you weren’t. I was just pointing out that that was a heck of an incident, what with the Hulk propping up a mountain, Iron Man blowing up more than he’d ever done before, and Mr. Fantastic showing why he’s the smartest human around (Say, why don’t we start a thread about who’s the most intelligent comic character?) I was also supporting you by pointing out that this version of the Hulk was actually weaker than the ‘normal’ Hulk. That guy probably wouldn’t have had to work so hard to support the roof of the hero’s little chamber, as long as he was mad at it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ranking-of-most-powerful-dc-and-marvel-characters/88672.md?page=2)