# Rap history **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 15, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941 "2015-08-15T20:51:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Thinktank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Thinktank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thinktank)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/1 "2015-08-15T20:51:22Z")
I honestly don’t know where to post this question. I teetered between GQ and here, but depending how one views the questions it could fit many places on SDMBs. So back in the early 80’s and a bit before actually. In a time where one would be hard pressed to hear the term “Hip Hop”. (There was only rap from my early years). Back in the days of Grand Master Flash, the Sugar Hill Gang, Lakeside (Fantastic Voyage), Run DMC (later) and even later into the 90’s The Fat Boys, then Coolio. There’s a theme I’m researching. The “fun factor” aspect of Rap (which I refer to regardless of it being Hip Hop or distinctly Rap for simplification purposes). Back in the day, Rap was done in a “non-threatening” manner that implied something so new and different was just one big fun party that everyone was invited to take part in. Somewhere along the way that perspective changed. Everything was “Hip Hop” and most rappers that still remained strictly rappers became the most hardcore of all the Hip Hop artists. But even Hip Hop became more about thuggin’ and bitches and gold chains, big rims, you know -what we have today. My question is what caused this shift in how primarily black music presented itself? Did “friendly” just not sell as well as the “baller/thug/pimp” image? What in the music scene changed so much that Hip Hop of today is what it is with little of what it was? I’m looking for both facts and opinion in the matter. I have no real preference, just allot of “scientific curiosity” I favor music of both types, so there’s no favorites in asking this question. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/2 "2015-08-15T21:33:20Z")
According to Ice-T, gangsta rap was created in 1985 by [Schooly D](http://www.daveyd.com/iceprops.html). ---
**Author:** ![Thinktank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Thinktank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thinktank)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/3 "2015-08-15T22:04:17Z")
Thank you for your reply, but why? What drove a form of music to change so drastically? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/4 "2015-08-15T22:15:28Z")
> [@Thinktank](#): > > What drove a form of music to change so drastically? What’s the change? White Lines was a big hit and social commentary in, what, 1983? ---
**Author:** ![EinsteinsHund](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/einsteinshund/32/8400_2.png) [@EinsteinsHund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EinsteinsHund)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/5 "2015-08-15T22:40:24Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > What’s the change? White Lines was a big hit and social commentary in, what, 1983? So was “The Message” from, I think, 1981. ---
**Author:** ![Thinktank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Thinktank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thinktank)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/6 "2015-08-15T23:23:19Z")
Rarities, both of them. The change in the facade, in the impersonation of “harder” types -of the lacking of this “fun-everyone’s invited” aspect to their music. This music does not exit anymore, even if the artist didn’t grow up on the streets, they do for the on-stage persona. ---
**Author:** ![Thinktank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Thinktank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thinktank)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/7 "2015-08-15T23:30:43Z")
for the record that word was “exist”… ---
**Author:** ![journeyman\_southpaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5e9695/32.png) [@journeyman\_southpaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/journeyman_southpaw)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/8 "2015-08-15T23:31:26Z")
During the '80s there was [a gradual shift in the starring role away from the deejay and toward the emcee](http://www.popmatters.com/column/137719-is-there-a-dj-in-the-house/). I think you could draw a parallel with the '60s and the age of the “star producer”, when someone like Phil Spector would be as famous as the performer he was producing, and how that faded as rock music became more… I guess we could say adult, both in seriousness of subject matter and explicitness. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/9 "2015-08-16T02:20:21Z")
There are plenty of rap documentaries out there. The basic data I am aware of is that The Message, White Lines and a few other songs were the first serious rap songs. Please remember, rap started from “toasting” - DJ Cool Herc was from Jamaica where stepping up and speaking and presenting during a big open party was part of the festivities. When he came to the US he started doing the same thing, and Grandmaster Flash extended it by adding two turntables and a microphone, enabling him to line up the same break beat on both turntables and keep the beat going while the toaster toasted. The reason Walk this Way was such a logical crossover song was that DJ’s like Grandmaster Flash loved the beat and would stretch it out for minutes at time using two turntables a block parties. So: who wants heavy message music at a block party? It wasn’t until rap was a more established genre that it was able to move past being merely fun, party music. By the time you get to Public Enemy, with it’s deeply innovative production by Hank Shocklee and the Bomb Squad, and Chuck D’s aggressive message and basso profundo delivery, well, everybody took notice. Still the best to this day. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/10 "2015-08-16T02:22:13Z")
> [@Thinktank](#): > > Rarities, both of them. > The change in the facade, in the impersonation of “harder” types -of the lacking of this “fun-everyone’s invited” aspect to their music. This music does not exit anymore, even if the artist didn’t grow up on the streets, they do for the on-stage persona. Wait…what? White Lines and The Message are “rarities”? You have no clue what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/11 "2015-08-16T02:41:16Z")
“Thinktank” ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/12 "2015-08-16T02:55:49Z")
[Stetsasonic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgmfyFm30OE). Old skool, talking all that jazz ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/13 "2015-08-16T03:24:25Z")
Every kind of rap you’re looking for exists. In abundance You should be asking why the range of topics and sounds is so limited on corporate radio and TV. ---
**Author:** ![Thinktank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Thinktank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thinktank)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/14 "2015-08-16T03:46:40Z")
Well I got my answers, so I’d call this thread a success. I always expect to be gnawed on for my curiosity so whatever. Regardless I appreciate the information everyone. It’s been enlightening. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/15 "2015-08-16T03:58:33Z")
I don’t know exactly how/when “gangster rap” started but Gil Scott Heron more or less invented rap and he did in 1970 and it was very serious, not fun party music: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnJFhuOWgXg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnJFhuOWgXg) Whitey On The Moon: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtBy\_ppG4hY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtBy_ppG4hY) Home Is Where The Hatred Is: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtzlFO19m3k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtzlFO19m3k) The last song is kind of on the line between singing/rapping but I really like the song so I included it ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/16 "2015-08-16T04:00:05Z")
> [@Thinktank](#): > > Well I got my answers, so I’d call this thread a success. I always expect to be gnawed on for my curiosity so whatever. Regardless I appreciate the information everyone. It’s been enlightening. I’m not a rap music expert but I would assume the rise of crack cocaine and street gangs in the 80’s contributed to the rise of gangster rap ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2015, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/17 "2015-08-16T04:03:11Z")
> [@Thinktank](#): > > Well I got my answers, so I’d call this thread a success. I always expect to be gnawed on for my curiosity so whatever. Regardless I appreciate the information everyone. It’s been enlightening. Glad it has been enlightening, but do your homework. It is great to ask questions, but don’t offer statements like The Message is a “rarity” when you don’t know. I in NO way claim to be a rap expert, but try to listen. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/18 "2015-08-17T16:09:13Z")
The term _hip hop_ was brought into the mainstream with the Sugar Hill Gang’s _Rapper’s Delight_. Remember the beginning of the 1979 song: \*\*\*I said a hip, hop, the hippie, the hippie / To the hip hip-hop, and you don’t stop \*\*\*. ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/19 "2015-08-18T15:45:01Z")
“Message”, “Conscious”, and politically focused rap has always been around. So have party styles and to some extent gangster rap. Which style floated up the charts to mass popularity is what really changed as time went on. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941/20 "2015-08-18T16:05:45Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I don’t know exactly how/when “gangster rap” started but Gil Scott Heron more or less invented rap and he did in 1970 and it was very serious, not fun party music: > > The Revolution Will Not Be Televised: > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnJFhuOWgXg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnJFhuOWgXg) > Whitey On The Moon: > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtBy\_ppG4hY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtBy_ppG4hY) > Home Is Where The Hatred Is: > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtzlFO19m3k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtzlFO19m3k) > > The last song is kind of on the line between singing/rapping but I really like the song so I included it Here is a counterexample from Pigmeat Markham. [His 1968 comedy album has a song called “Here comes the Judge” that is definitely rap](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvMBxlu62c0) but it wasn’t meant to be taken seriously at all. The interesting thing about this song is that it has lots of the hallmarks of straight up hip hop music including the beat. Most sources place the development of rap and hip hop well after 1968 but this song is proof that the elements were fairly well developed before other so-called inventors released their own works. > **[Pigmeat Markham](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigmeat_Markham)** > > Dewey "Pigmeat" Markham (April 18, 1904 – December 13, 1981) was an African American entertainer. Though best known as a comedian, Markham was also a singer, dancer, and actor. His nickname came from a stage routine, in which he declared himself to be "Sweet Poppa Pigmeat". He was sometimes credited in films as Pigmeat "Alamo" Markham. > He is also known for his 1968 single "Here Comes the Judge", which is often considered to be the earliest hip hop record. > Markham was born in Durham, North Car... [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-history/727941.md?page=2)