# Rap is not a music, it is the music...in America **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 27, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172 "2004-07-27T22:59:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/21 "2004-07-28T19:26:30Z")
A poem is nothing more than a composition in verse so any music with lyrics would be one regardless of its depth. For good or bad, if Britney Spears wrote any of her songs, she’s as much a poet as Robert Frost. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/22 "2004-07-28T19:59:50Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > A poem is nothing more than a composition in verse so any music with lyrics would be one regardless of its depth. > > For good or bad, if Britney Spears wrote any of her songs, she’s as much a poet as Robert Frost. Right. Which is why we need a word to differentiate the good stuff from the bad while acknowledging it’s all poetry. I propose we call Britney a “crapoet” who writes “crapoetry.” Robert Frost can still be a poet. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/23 "2004-07-28T20:13:18Z")
That’s a good idea but I’d keep them confined to the same category personally. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/24 "2004-07-28T21:19:28Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > A poem is nothing more than a composition in verse so any music with lyrics would be one regardless of its depth. > > For good or bad, if Britney Spears wrote any of her songs, she’s as much a poet as Robert Frost. I disagree. Songwriting and poetry are two distinct artforms, each with its own history, conventions, and techniques. I can write half-way decent poetry, but I cannot write the lyrics to a song to save my life, even though I have been playing music since I was 7. I’ve found very few people who are equally adept at songwriting and poetry. They are not the same thing. I am not saying one art form is “higher” than the other. It’s a very different technique. ---
**Author:** ![Gadfly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gadfly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadfly)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/25 "2004-07-28T21:29:41Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > I had no idea you were a hip hop artist, **Gad**. 😉 Dahrhgh. Preview, Gad! Preview!! ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/26 "2004-07-28T21:45:57Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I disagree. Songwriting and poetry are two distinct artforms, each with its own history, conventions, and techniques. I can write half-way decent poetry, but I cannot write the lyrics to a song to save my life, even though I have been playing music since I was 7. I’ve found very few people who are equally adept at songwriting and poetry. They are not the same thing. I am not saying one art form is “higher” than the other. It’s a very different technique. Nah. Lyric-writing is pretty much the same as writing poetry. Songwriting involves writing music, which is an entirely different skill. Your poems can be viewed as lyrics lacking a melody line. Writing melody lines (how your lyrics are sung) is again a form of songwriting, and therefore different from poetry. I don’t see any difference in generating a line of verse that fits the decided format of a poem than writing one that fits the rhythm of a melody line. ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2004, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/27 "2004-07-28T21:59:43Z")
By this logic we could also claim that the documentary is not a movie form but THE movie form … in America, based on the fact that Moore’s controversial film was the top for a few weeks. Or comic-to-movie based on Spiderman’s success or - well you should be getting the picture. Rap may or may not have staying power, but we shouldn’t draw a conclusion based on one CD hitting number one. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8797f3/32.png) [@The\_Universe\_Lashes\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Universe_Lashes_Out)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/28 "2004-07-29T06:20:53Z")
> [@unwashed brain](#): > > I hear ya - Rap **HAS** died…it gave us a beautiful swansong with 1991’s _Low End Theory_ by **A Tribe Called Quest** and **De La Soul** ’s _De La Soul Is Dead_, a proud kiss goodbye with 1992’s _Don’t Sweat the Technique_ by **Eric B. and Rakim** , and a choking last gasp with 1993’s _Midnight Marauders_ by **A Tribe Called Quest**. > > 99.999999999999999999999% of rap albums produced since then have been utter crap. There’s still good rap being made. Most of the new stuff I listen to, except for OutKast, is not at all popular. The Roots get some radio play, but most of their best songs are not the singles, in my opinion. I’ve never seen a J-Live or Mr. Lif video, but they are both putting out great music. ---
**Author:** ![Jayrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Jayrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayrot)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/29 "2004-07-29T06:47:17Z")
Aesop Rock, Atmosphere, Listen, Vast Aire, mf doom, etc. Check it out. It’s dope. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/30 "2004-07-29T14:52:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Right. Which is why we need a word to differentiate the good stuff from the bad while acknowledging it’s all poetry. I propose we call Britney a “crapoet” who writes “crapoetry.” Robert Frost can still be a poet. 😉 “If it were thought that anything I wrote was influenced by Robert Frost, I would take that particular piece of mine, shred it, and flush it down the toilet, hoping not to clog the pipes.” - James Dickey, on Robert Frost Having read (and enjoyed) most of James Dickey, and having also read (and disliked) much of Robert Frost, I’ve got to say that I think Frost gets too much credit. I tend to agree with Dickey’s stance on the issue, really. As far as great modern poets go, I’d say Robert Frost’s accomplishments in poetry are pretty close to Britney’s in modern pop: simple rhymed quatrains with a catchy beat, and three chords, tops. Dickey is no Radiohead, but he’s at least up there with Metallica. Easily accessible, emotional, but still clearly skilled in his art, with one or two more layers waiting beneath if you care to dig. ---
**Author:** ![Jurph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/50afbb/32.png) [@Jurph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jurph)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/31 "2004-07-29T14:53:53Z")
Oh yeah, and uhhh… [/hijack], in case I forgot to mention it. Carry on. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/32 "2004-07-29T15:06:30Z")
> [@START](#): > > Just found out that rap artist Lloyd Banks has the number album out in America, not number one Rap album number one album period, eventhough this is nothing new for a rap artist to dominate the charts…and they said rap/hip hop wouldn’t last…LMAO. 😛 Can you post a cite??? When I went to Billboard dot com it said Jimmy Buffet has the number 1 album out in America. Lloyd Banks? Would that be the brother of Philip Banks, the father in Prince of BelAir?? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/33 "2004-07-29T15:12:46Z")
> [@Jayrot](#): > > Aesop Rock, Atmosphere, Listen, Vast Aire, mf doom, etc. > > Check it out. It’s dope. Oh yeah, Atmosphere kicks ass. I’m listening to _God Loves Ugly_\* right now. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/34 "2004-07-29T15:18:53Z")
Rather, make that _God Loves Ugly_. See, this is why I never code my hand. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/35 "2004-07-29T15:23:17Z")
_ **BY** _ hand. I need some more caffeine. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/36 "2004-07-29T16:52:28Z")
> [@unwashed brain](#): > > Nah. > > Lyric-writing is pretty much the same as writing poetry. Songwriting involves writing music, which is an entirely different skill. Your poems can be viewed as lyrics lacking a melody line. Writing melody lines (how your lyrics are sung) is again a form of songwriting, and therefore different from poetry. I don’t see any difference in generating a line of verse that fits the decided format of a poem than writing one that fits the rhythm of a melody line. I still disagree. If you’ve had experience doing both, you’d realize that they are different beasts. There may be some overlap, but a good poet is not necessarily a good lyricist, and a good lyricist might not necessarily make a good poet. Lyrics have different structures than poems, different rhythmic breakdowns (lyrics do not stick, by and large, to conventional poetic meters. If anything, they’re accentual, rather than accentual-syllabic), and a well-defined structure…the most typical being verse-chorus-verse-chorus (bridge-chorus.) It’s a different discipline to be able to tell a story in 3 minutes, make it suitable for a musical setting (have you ever tried putting something in iambic pentameter to music? Doesn’t really work.), be able to create a lyrical “hook” (usu. in the chorus) around which the song is based. There is some crossover between the two forms, but they are most definitely two distinct disciplines. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/37 "2004-07-29T16:58:23Z")
For a somewhat more eloquent explanation of the differences, from the perspective of a songwriter, you can read this little article: [http://www.musesmuse.com/mirko-q&a1.html](http://www.musesmuse.com/mirko-q&a1.html) > [@](#): > > In popular music, I believe poetry is a separate art form to lyric writing. Poetic devices such as assonance, alliteration, metaphors etc. are used, but whereas poetry is a stand-alone art, in songwriting, lyrics are only one factor in the song- the melody (just as important as the lyric, if not more so), the harmonic choices, the rhythm and texture are all part of the art. Also, in pop songs, the lyric matter is often simpler and a little more obvious than poetry, as the listener has to be able to discern some sort of meaning on first listen ---
**Author:** ![Kid\_A\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Kid\_A\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kid_A_1)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/38 "2004-07-29T18:04:22Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Can you post a cite??? > > When I went to Billboard dot com it said Jimmy Buffet has the number 1 album out in America. **START** was about two weeks slow with his post. Lloyd Banks was #1 for the previous two weeks, Jimmy Buffett beat him this week. [Cite](http://www.kasn.com/entertainment/music/story.aspx?content_id=D954DCD4-5A3E-448E-AF39-FD5FB4204BEE) > [@](#): > > Buffett’s License to Chill ended rapper Lloyd Banks’ two-week run at number one. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/39 "2004-07-29T18:10:00Z")
Two weeks at number one? Dwear God, people, _this stuff matters_! … I’m not saying rap doesn’t matter, that it’s not a large part of popular culture, or that it’s not a vibrant art form. But let’s find indicators that actually mean something, OK? ---
**Author:** ![Kid\_A\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Kid\_A\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kid_A_1)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/40 "2004-07-29T19:01:05Z")
I am in full agreement with you there, **ultrafilter**. I honestly don’t believe that a number one album means anything anymore. Then again, I’m a young guy, so I should say, did a number one album ever mean anything? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172.md?page=3)