# Rap is not a music, it is the music...in America **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 27, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172 "2004-07-27T22:59:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/41 "2004-07-29T19:14:54Z")
**Kid\_A** - the answer to the question “did a #1 record ever mean anything?” is: well, sometimes. Sometimes you know right then - like when a whole new genre (new to the pop charts anyway) hits number 1, like metal (Quiet Riot - crap, but showed where tastes were going at the time), new country (ditto) or rap/hip hop. Or when an artist just dominates - like when the Beatles had all top 5 singles positions in '64 or the BeeGees (including 1 song they wrote but didn’t record themselves, IIRC) in, when, '75? Or in hindsight, when certain artists got enough money from a hit record to do fund their explorations into other areas. For the most part, Barnum was right (paraphrased) - “no one ever lost money underestimating the taste and intelligence of the American people” ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/42 "2004-07-30T02:36:31Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I still disagree. If you’ve had experience doing both, you’d realize that they are different beasts. There may be some overlap, but a good poet is not necessarily a good lyricist, and a good lyricist might not necessarily make a good poet… I do have experience with both and yet do not believe they are different beasts. Any poet is capable of writing lyrics, and any lyricist is capable of writing poetry. Lyrics are indeed a subset of poetry, but I would not call them a specialization. > [@pulykamell](#): > > Lyrics have different structures than poems, different rhythmic breakdowns (lyrics do not stick, by and large, to conventional poetic meters. If anything, they’re accentual, rather than accentual-syllabic), and a well-defined structure…the most typical being verse-chorus-verse-chorus (bridge-chorus.) If what you’re suggesting is true, one should be able to look at any poetic work in print and identify whether it is a poem or song lyrics. At best, you might be able to place a probability that the work is one or the other, but you could not be certain. > [@pulykamell](#): > > It’s a different discipline to be able to tell a story in 3 minutes, make it suitable for a musical setting (have you ever tried putting something in iambic pentameter to music? Doesn’t really work.), be able to create a lyrical “hook” (usu. in the chorus) around which the song is based. It’s true that the majority of song lyrics we’re exposed to are formulaic, but what are “iambic pentameter” and “haiku” if not formulas? Hell, **Tool** has a song on their latest album where the syllables in the first verse follow the Fibonacci sequence, so I’m not buying that a melody line in iambic pentameter wouldn’t work. As for telling a story in 3 minutes…not all lyrics tell stories, so I’m not sure what you’re getting at there. Lyrics and poems are generally short literary works…another similarity IMO. > [@pulykamell](#): > > There is some crossover between the two forms, but they are most definitely two distinct disciplines. I still think you’re confusing writing lyrics with song composition. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/43 "2004-07-30T02:56:14Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > For a somewhat more eloquent explanation of the differences, from the perspective of a songwriter, you can read this little article: > > [Songwriting Tips & Tools - The Muse's Muse](http://www.musesmuse.com/mirko-q&a1.html) I didn’t read anything there that changed my mind. The author talks about adapting a poem to an operatic format and, like you, seems more to talking more about songwriting than lyric writing. Then he makes some generalizations about modern music which I have addressed above. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/44 "2004-07-30T02:59:20Z")
Well, we’ll just have to disagree then. I’ve seen plenty of good poets write shit lyrics and vice versa. I’m not confusing it with songwriting, either. I’m a musician, as well, so I know all what’s involved. I do think lyric writing is a specialization, and I’m not the only one who thinks this, if you checked the article I linked. Maybe you are good at both lyrics and poetry. You’re a rare individual, then. > [@](#): > > If what you’re suggesting is true, one should be able to look at any poetic work in print and identify whether it is a poem or song lyrics. At best, you might be able to place a probability that the work is one or the other, but you could not be certain. What’s your point here? I never said that you can look at a work and say with certainty whether one is a song or one is a lyric. But you can certainly tell with a high degree of probability which is which. And that’s _exactly_ what I was saying. There’s some overlap in the forms (Robert Burns would be a good example), but for the most part, they are different. I mean, the whole concept of a hook, a chorus – that’s very much a staple of songwriting. If you can’t write a memorable, repeatable hook, you can’t write a good song. (OK, there are exceptions, but for the most part.) But you can write a good poem without this. This is enough to differentiate the two disciplines for me. > [@](#): > > I still think you’re confusing writing lyrics with song composition. You tell me. By writing lyrics I mean writing words that are meant to be put to music, not necessarily writing the music itself. Writing lyrics takes some basic understanding of music and what works song wise. Once again, that article better articulates what I’m trying to say than I can. ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/45 "2004-07-30T04:06:37Z")
Yeah, we’re probably going to have to agree to disagree on this. 😉 > [@pulykamell](#): > > Well, we’ll just have to disagree then. I’ve seen plenty of good poets write shit lyrics and vice versa. I’m not confusing it with songwriting, either. I’m a musician, as well, so I know all what’s involved. I do think lyric writing is a specialization, and I’m not the only one who thinks this, if you checked the article I linked. Maybe you are good at both lyrics and poetry. You’re a rare individual, then. Good lyrics ARE good poetry and good poetry has the innate potential to be good lyrics in the hands of a songwriter. Therefore good lyricists ARE good poets, and good poets have the potential to be good lyricists if they can find a songwriter to put their words to music. [QUOTE=pulykamell] What’s your point here? I never said that you can look at a work and say with certainty whether one is a song or one is a lyric. But you can certainly tell with a high degree of probability which is which. **QUOTE** That’s a bold assertion based on a generalization which you admit below. > [@pulykamell](#): > > And that’s _exactly_ what I was saying. There’s some overlap in the forms (Robert Burns would be a good example), but for the most part, they are different. I mean, the whole concept of a hook, a chorus – that’s very much a staple of songwriting. If you can’t write a memorable, repeatable hook, you can’t write a good song. (OK, there are exceptions, but for the most part.) But you can write a good poem without this. This is enough to differentiate the two disciplines for me. Again, you’re making points that are based on popular archetypes. Innumerable poems have repeating phrases that one could liken to choruses or hooks. The difference being that choruses and hooks have the additional component of a melody line, which we’ve agreed is outside the realm of our discussion. There are no **necessary** elements to poetry or lyrics other than words, and even that’s debatable. > [@pulykamell](#): > > …Writing lyrics takes some basic understanding of music and what works song wise… Nope, but writing melody lines does. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/46 "2004-07-30T06:03:14Z")
> [@unwashed brain](#): > > …it’s true that the majority of song lyrics we’re exposed to are formulaic, but what are “iambic pentameter” and “haiku” if not formulas? Hell, **Tool** has a song on their latest album where the syllables in the first verse follow the Fibonacci sequence, so I’m not buying that a melody line in iambic pentameter wouldn’t work… Are you sure you’re not thinking of APC? I can’t think of any of Lateralus’ songs that would follow the Fibonacci sequence. ---
**Author:** ![START](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@START](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/START)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/47 "2004-07-30T07:31:22Z")
Anti-Pop Consortium, Aceyalone, BusDriver, Pigeon John, The Others, Western Division Conference, Mars Ill, Blackalicious, Visionaries, Lions of the Desert, Antonius, Abstract Rude, Planet Asia, Jay Dee, LMNO, AWOL ONE, Soup The Chemist, Bahamadia, Eligh, Xodus, Quasimoto, Sev Static, Ill Bill, Poochie, Future Shock, Liquid Men, Myango, Deepspace 5, Ugly Duckling, Ill Harmonics, Murs, Mikah 9, Red Cloud, Bizzart, Rhettmatic, Zane, Discrete Merchants, Declaime, Luke Geraty, Project Blowed, Mr Lif, Aesop Rock, Cross Movement, Jurny Big, Phil Da Agony, Cal Logic, Crown City Rockers, DCP…anyway my underground rap collection is pretty up to date…I have been succesful in converting many mainstream Hip Hop heads at my school into underground fans…but not with converting country fans. Not saying I don’t like mainstream but there is no point in buying it full price because chances are someone I know will have bought it already and will burn it for me for a price between Zero and Five dollars. ^That added nothing to the discussion :smack: …and your right Lloyd Banks was knocked off the #1 position but they were reporting it on CNN like he was still the number 1 musician in the country…nevertheless no matter where you go you can’t get away from Hip Hop, especially as long as people have good stereo systems in their cars. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/48 "2004-07-30T08:16:32Z")
> [@START](#): > > …nevertheless no matter where you go you can’t get away from Hip Hop, especially as long as people have good stereo systems in their cars. Yeah, remind me to thank hip-hop for that obnoxiousness the next time I see it. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![unwashed\_brain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a9adbd/32.png) [@unwashed\_brain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unwashed_brain)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/49 "2004-07-30T10:34:30Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Are you sure you’re not thinking of APC? I can’t think of any of Lateralus’ songs that would follow the Fibonacci sequence. Title track - Lateralus. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/50 "2004-07-30T12:22:14Z")
> [@START](#): > > can’t get away from Hip Hop, especially as long as people have good stereo systems in their cars. This, more than the music itself, is the main reason I hate it. There sure are some inconsiderate bastards out there who like forcing it on the rest of us. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/51 "2004-07-30T12:31:04Z")
**START** the good news is that this thread has lead to a couple of interesting discussions about hip hop and poetry vs. rap lyrics, but you, as the starter of this thread, haven’t really participated, nor have you commented on peoples’ reactions (including mine) to your OP - you are laughing because a rap guy got to #1 and that means hip hop is in for the long haul. We reply with: and this is news? Of course its a viable genre, and this guy is just a one-hit wonder example of the commercialization of the genre - something that happens with any viable style. So while the thread has borne fruit, I still don’t see the point of your OP and you haven’t commented further… 😕 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/52 "2004-07-30T13:41:21Z")
> [@unwashed brain](#): > > Nope, but writing melody lines does. I would say that rap is closest to pure poetry. Those two genres can be indistinguishable. I am not arguing about the lyrical content of rap. But pop music, no. Different skill sets are required. Analogy: Writing a good 3-minute rock song is different than writing a symphonic piece. I’m sure John Cage couldn’t write a decent pop song to save his life. Same with poetry vs lyric writing. [Yet another site that basically agrees with me:](http://nene.essortment.com/writingsongtip_rmmf.htm) > [@](#): > > If you are like most songwriters you came to lyric writing through the gateway of poetry. After all, a song is just a poem set to music, right? Wrong! Although poetry and lyric writing share similar aspects they each have their own separate and unique style. [Or here](http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/jun02/dawson30.htm) > [@](#): > > …reveal one of the most common misconceptions in the music industry – the mistaken belief that poetry and lyrics are synonymous [Or how bout the syllabus of a lyric writing course:](http://www.absolutewrite.com/classes/Falzano/lyricwriting.htm) > [@](#): > > Lesson 1: > > What is a lyric? Recognizing the difference between lyric writing and poetry. Also, there will be discussions on understanding the different song markets and where to look for ideas. It’s not like I’m making this stuff up. From my personal experience, it’s true; from everything I read from the professionals it’s true; and I can’t think of very many successful poets who are lyric writers and vice versa. If it was such an easy transition from poet \> lyricist, why don’t more struggling poets do it for an extra bit of scratch? Why do you have people specializing in lyric writing? Why do you think lyric writing doesn’t require any knowledge of music? I’m not saying you have to write a melody, but you DO have to have a basic idea of how a song moves and works. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/53 "2004-07-30T17:37:06Z")
> [@unwashed brain](#): > > Title track - Lateralus. Um. I’m still not getting it. _Black and white are all I see in my infancy. Red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me. Lets me see. As below, so above and beyond, I imagine Drawn beyond the lines of reason. Push the envelope. Watch it bend…_ That’s 12, 13, 3, 13, 8, 5, 3. How does that follow the Fibonacci sequence? Granted, the last few lines are a reverse sequence but they never finish it and the beginning doesn’t follow at all. ---
**Author:** ![START](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@START](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/START)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2004, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172/54 "2004-07-31T07:29:08Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > **START** the good news is that this thread has lead to a couple of interesting discussions about hip hop and poetry vs. rap lyrics, but you, as the starter of this thread, haven’t really participated, nor have you commented on peoples’ reactions (including mine) to your OP - you are laughing because a rap guy got to #1 and that means hip hop is in for the long haul. We reply with: and this is news? Of course its a viable genre, and this guy is just a one-hit wonder example of the commercialization of the genre - something that happens with any viable style. > > So while the thread has borne fruit, I still don’t see the point of your OP and you haven’t commented further… 😕 Every once and a while I like to throw in a thread about Hip Hop… One of my main points always is, 20+ years and still the genre is consistently in the top ten and yet some people still compare it to disco and say that it won’t last. Hip Hop is here to stay around for quite a while in whatever form it takes on in the coming years, Lloyd Banks is just one small example of that. More importantly a lot of people hate the music but have never given it a chance to listen to it without being critical. They become close minded and don’t try to understand the lyrics or even listen to enough of it to understand the formulas behind the beats. I rode to school for almost 3 weeks with a guy who blasted country music on the way to school and I hated country but I gave it a chance and now I have a Toby Keith album if you can believe it. This same person who I rode with refused to even listen to any rap with an open mind, he said it was “crap”. He is like so many other’s that don’t listen to the music and therefore do not have an informed opinion on if it is crap or not. All those people saying rap is crap who don’t listen to the music should say “I don’t know much about rap” and leave it at that. I could say a certain kind of music “sucks” but if I do not know anything about it then my opinion means very little. With Hip Hop there are lots of forms that it takes on, from the most commercial type to the most experimental, abstract and undergound forms one can imagine and a person who has listened to 2 minutes worth of 1 song and then given up or has heard it from another car while stopped at a red light has a right to an opinion, and can say that “rap is crap” but that opinion does not mean very much to me. BTW I am a nice driver that doesn’t force my music on everybody else. 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-a-music-it-is-the-music-in-america/257172.md?page=2)