# Rap is not music? Are you smokin' krack? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 3, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804 "2003-03-03T19:11:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MusicJunkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@MusicJunkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicJunkie)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/61 "2003-03-05T01:34:34Z")
[/QUOTE] I have always held the notion that anyone who dosen’t like hip-hop/rap are racist [/QUOTE] In Brazil rap is not primarily black, in fact it is mostly done by whites. Now what? I don’t like country does that mean I’m a racist to whites? I don’t like rap but I like african rythms. Now what? ---
**Author:** ![MusicJunkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@MusicJunkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MusicJunkie)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/62 "2003-03-05T01:36:59Z")
Sorry about the “now whats”, on review they sound annoying and aggressive and that’s not the intention. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/63 "2003-03-05T01:58:23Z")
By **Sagasumono** “I have always held the notion that anyone who dosen’t like hip-hop/rap are racist.”\ "If I have the ear to listen to various kinds of music and enjoy it, does that mean others just don’t bother to listen to a certain kind of music because it’s made by people of a different melanian count, "\ How then would you explain that I like John Lee Hooker, Lightnin’ Hopkins and B.B. King to name just a few, but can’t stand rap? The above named artist’s melanin count is way different than mine… Could it be that I simply don’t like rap? That rap sounds aren’t pleasing to me? Just maybe? ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/64 "2003-03-05T09:23:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Profane Creation \* > \*\*You can’t spell ‘crap’ without ‘rap.’ \*\* No, no, the old joke goes: -Do you know what “rap” is short for? -What -Crap Let’s go back to a serious discussion of what’s at hand. I still contend most people are simply arguing with their prejudices of what rap is, rather than really understanding the genre. Rap isn’t all about “hoes” and “gats” and “cappin yo motherfuckin ass, bizzitch.” Yes, there is a genre of rap (gangster rap) which gets the most publicity and public derision, but this is not the only flavor of rap out there. But let’s get to some points one by one: **DKW** Rap is purely about imagery. That’s not a well-thought out opinion, if I’ve ever heard one. And Christina Aguilera and the Backstreet Boys and other corporate rock crap isn’t purely about imagery? These bands are no less image conscious than rap musicians are. _It doesn’t require any music talent._ Boy, oh boy. Every try rapping convincingly? It takes a great innate understanding of beat and musical structure. Not just anyone can do it. Yeah, I could stand up and talk to a beat, but it ain’t _rap_. To do it well requires 1) skill in keeping a beat; 2) understanding how to syncopate and vary that beat; 3) changing vocal timbres to emphasize phrases or song parts. This is just the musical aspect of what a good rapper should possess. Never mind stringing together the actual words and images. A good rapper _does not_ talk at the same speed throughout the whole freakin song. There are dynamic changes (crescendos and diminuendos), the pace of words are sped up and slowed down to provide an interplay against the backbeat. You hear syncopations and polyrhythms (especially threes against twos) you’d never find in rock music. It’s rhythmically _exciting_, and far more musical skill goes into it than you’d think. Would you consider African drumming music? I certainly would. There may not be an obvious melody to the music, but there is a timbral and rhythmic interplay which can be construed as a type of melody. Drumming is music. Rap requires many of the same skills a good drummer should possess. Also, in rap music, there often _is_ a melody or pseudo-melody especially in the chorus. For some reason, Wyclef Jean’s “Perfect Gentleman” is running through my mind as an example of this. There is certainly melody there. **mozart** - though I like the end of your statement, I still don’t think the first part of your sentence is true. If you’re going to make a blanket statement like “it has next to nothing to do with what the rest of the world would call music,” please define what you believe the rest of the world would call music. So far as I’ve traveled around the world, it seems to me everybody treats rap as music; they dance to it, they party around it, they turn it up on the radio. They don’t do that to spoken word poetry, that’s for sure. Behind the vocals there are complex rhythmic patterns, samples, musical figures. It shares some similirities with the Minimalists approach to musical composition. **Chronos** - I don’t think rap _necessarily_ must be classiffied as music; I just think that it is. As a musician, it satisfies my understanding of what music is. For me, music does not require a tune. As I’ve said before, I regard drumming as music, and I really don’t understand how it can be seen as unmusical. If so, then when I drum on the snare I’m not playing music, but if you give me some tympani (which are pitched) I am? Sounds like BS to me. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/65 "2003-03-05T13:50:32Z")
So, I read this thread, and I decided to do a little bit of research. I mean, stupid me, listening to rap, and I _never realised that what I was listening to wasn’t actually music!_ I decided to listen to something that _was_ music. Now, everyone knows that rock music is music. For instance, there’s that old song about “rock 'n roll music” and something about choosing it. And it’s just got to be (rock n roll) music (if you want to dance with me), since it was around when lots of old people were teenagers, and you just know that _they_ wouldn’t have spent their youth grooving to something that wasn’t music. Well, thought I, let me listen to this Rock and/or Roll! I shall find the epitome of rock, and listen to it, so that I can truly discover what music is. But what is the epitome of rock? Elvis? No, too early. The genre was only beginning and had not established features and patterns. The Beatles? Same problem - they were so influential on the genre that what they did ended up helping define what was and wasn’t rock. No, I needed something that was big, popular yet not specifically doing anything new… but undoubtably ROCK! Now, I don’t know what that says to you, but to me that says Queen. Guitars, costumes, excess, tragic death and loud noises: could anything be more rock 'n roll? Well, I skipped Bohemian Rhapsody; it’s an anomaly that shouldn’t be used as the basis for an exploration into rock n roll. So I slipped into the CD player that disc… Queen’s Greatest Hits, Volume 1 (or maybe 2, I don’t actually own it - the narrative is purely for effect). And pressed play. I listened to **We Will Rock You**. So rock that it even has rock in the title. It starts with a beat. Big pounding beat. Oh dear… just a beat? This cannot be music. Then the vocals begin… relief. But the vocals… they aren’t being sung! They are sort of being chanted! They’re being talked, spoken, shouted… not rapped… yet they are not being sung!!! Fuck. Shit. Fuck. Shit. It’s OK. Rock will redeem itself. The chorus will be sung. It shall be musical. **We. Will. We. Will. ROCK YOU!** It wasn’t. Possibly a tiny bit more melodious than the rest of the song, but it was certainly nowhere near as melodic as the chorus to Snoop Dogg’s _Who Am I (What’s My Name)_ or Eminem’s _Cleaning Out My Closet_ or - gasp - even Nelly’s _Hot In Herrrrrre_\*. \*Please excuse use of gratuitous quantities of R. Like pounding Dre beats, the chorus hammered itself into my head, running back and forth like the DJs hand on a turntable. My mind was digging through its metaphorical crates to determine just how something like rock music could be no more musical than a dreaded hip hop song. I was spouting gibberish like a battler with stage fright. I mean, it’s tricky to rock a rhyme, to rock a rhyme that’s right on time, it’s tricky, but I’d expect real musicians like Freddie Mercury and the Queens to be able to rise above the standards of those gang-banging thugs and general no goodniks Darryl McDaniels and his other two boys from Queens. But my point is, the thing, the goddamn Queen song, this hallowed song by one of the hallowed names in rock music, (yes _music_) was not musical. It was no more musical than your average rap song, which as we all know just isn’t music. I’m going to leave the last word to Mr Chuck D, of Public Enemy. \*\*Me: Chuck D, people are saying that rap isn’t music, that it’s just noise. What do you have to say to that? Chuck D: Turn it up! Bring the noise!\*\* ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/66 "2003-03-05T14:21:17Z")
> [@](#): > > My beef against rap is that it’s purely about style and imagery, and it doesn’t require any real musical talent whatsoever. That simply isn’t true. Not anyone can rap well…it’s a skill and an art. When someone raps poorly, you can tell. Lyricism is also a skill. Writing a good rhyme isn’t easy. And about imagery and style, well that’s a bunch of hooey. All popular music is about the superficial, and popular rap isn’t any exception. But rap as a genre is no more superficial than any other genre. Back in the day, people slammed jazz just as hard as they slam rap nowadays. But now people give jazz its props as a valid artform. People can comfortably respect it even if they aren’t fans. Rap has been around for two decades now. I think it’s about time people gave it some respect. ---
**Author:** ![Dryga\_Yes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Dryga\_Yes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dryga_Yes)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/67 "2003-03-05T15:28:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DKW \* > \*\*I mean, even a trashy eurobeat hack belting out some garbage about rhythm and energy etc. has to know how to _sing_. \*\* Where did you get this preposterous idea? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by DKW \* > \*\* Anyone can recite poetry to synth music…_\* Yes. That wouldn’t be rap though. Try it once, and see how close you get to real rap. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DKW \* > \*\*I find it more than a little annoying that virtually nobody can see rap music for what it is. (As someone who spent a short yet memorable stint in the Boy Scouts, I can tell you that there are a plenty of pathetic losers who talk about drugs, booze, sexual encounters, and killing people.) And if this is the voice of the black person or whatever the hell, I think they can do a helluva lot better than this. \*\* Rap has nothing to do with drugs. Rap has nothing to do with booze. Rap has nothing to do with killing people. Go earn yourself some De La Soul. ---
**Author:** ![Sagasumono](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Sagasumono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sagasumono)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/68 "2003-03-06T03:46:30Z")
Musical Junkie and John Carter, thanx for the replys (and MJ for your retrctions of the “Now whats”) To make myslef clear I was not making a statement of “those who don’t like hip hop are racist.” (which it seems you felt I was doing) rather I was asking the queston about if you don’t like it, does that mean you don’t have an ear for it (much like how many do not have an ear ofr contry or Afro-Celt sound system) or does it mean your racist, or is it something else entirely? Not making ANY statemtns, just asking a queston. For example, not to say DKW is racist or anything, hell I don’t know the bloke. But I wonder if when people hear rap that fall into his catagory, that would be to automatically assume the song is about guns & killing,drugs,women,booze…(which in hat case would make it not much different from rock.) Gex Gex, good analogy. By your definition that would make “Another One Bites the Dust” a gansta rap song eh? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/69 "2003-03-06T04:58:00Z")
OK, **Sagasomono** I think you’ve cleared it up, at least for me. I don’t think musical taste has anything to do with an individual’s race. More likely taste is developed, and an individual is probably going to be more inclined to appreciate what he grows accustomed to. Still, my parents/grandparents tried very hard to get me to appreciate classical, and caused me to listen to a lot of it. That failed, because I have never liked classical. “Give me that old timey Rock ‘n’ Roll”. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/70 "2003-03-06T13:05:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by Sagasumono_ > Gex Gex, good analogy. By your definition that would make “Another One Bites the Dust” a gansta rap song eh? Word up, homey. MC Freddie M gonna bust a cap in yo’ ass to all yo’ muthfuckas dissin him, beee-yatch! [/wigga] Sorry, about that. I think the ghost of Vanilla Ice came over me. Didn’t they sample the bass line for _Another One Bites The Dust_ in _Rapper’s Delight_ and mixed it with a Cher song… or something? And then there’s Mr Ice’s illegitimate use of Under Pressure. Hmm… seems Queen have quite a long association with rap. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/71 "2003-03-06T14:44:33Z")
There’s U2’s “Numb”. Where’s the melody in that song? Where’s the “tune”? If it isn’t music, why do I like it so much? ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/72 "2003-03-07T14:33:32Z")
And R.E.M.'s _Belong_, which is literally Michael Stipe talking over the music. Shows perfectly the difference between rap and talking. ---
**Author:** ![S\_Puppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eada6e/32.png) [@S\_Puppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/S_Puppy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/73 "2003-03-08T15:37:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Degrance \* > \*\*Then I have been a fogey since I left highschool. I was exposed to RAP about as early as anyone. I attended highschool closer to Detroit than M&M ever lived and was exposed to it then and in college. \*\* Since the first rap album came out about two decades ago I guess some of us may have even been born as fogeys. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/74 "2003-03-09T22:04:25Z")
Am I the only one who doesn’t like rap because I find it so amazingly silly and childish? From the first time I heard Sugar Hill Gang’s Rapper’s Delight in Middle School to today it all makes me want to cringe with embarrassment! It’s like music that you thought was really cool when you were 10 years old, like the song Convoy or Disco Duck, and would play 20 times in a row. But hearing it later it embarrasses you to tears! It also reminds me of hearing Jazz singers ‘scat’. I just want to slap them and say “You’re a freakin’ adult! Stop acting like a four year old!” :mad: ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804/75 "2003-03-10T12:43:08Z")
> [@](#): > > Am I the only one who doesn’t like rap because I find it so amazingly silly and childish? From the first time I heard Sugar Hill Gang’s Rapper’s Delight in Middle School to today it all makes me want to cringe with embarrassment! Am I the only one who doesn’t like rock because I find it so amazingly silly and childish? From the first time I heard The Beatles’ _Octopus’ Garden_ in primary school to today, it all makes me want to cringe with embarrasment! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-not-music-are-you-smokin-krack/158804.md?page=3)