# RAP is the most versatile music **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [April 20, 2004, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974 "2004-04-20T04:29:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/101 "2004-04-24T22:03:33Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Just the fact that many instruments take years of practice before the player becomes a virtuoso (if he does) would prove (at least to me) that playing music on an instrument and writing good music is way more difficult than rapping which does not take nearly as much time. And besides that I am sure many rappers write their lyrics after hearing the music so they are leaning on the music for the tone and flow of the words, the timing, etc. šŸ˜ƒ [Michael Jackson] Youā€™re ignorant. Thatā€™s ignorant. Honestlyā€¦this is pretty much an unwinnable argument from either side, but just know that I realize and respect how hard it is to master a guitar or a set of drums. However, I also know how hard it is to master a pen and pad and I happen to be of the (somewhat experienced) opinion that the latter is at least as hard, if not harder, than the former. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/102 "2004-04-24T22:27:04Z")
In replying to Cisco: Sure playing an instrument and singing both take talent but singing is a talent that seems innate in a greater number of people than playing an instrument. It is probably just the fact that not as many people ever attempt to play an instrument. But anyways if a person has a gift for singing it is a talent that takes less effort to cultivate and grow than does playing an instrument. Most people have at least a little singing talent, but all that aside the majority of rap I have heard is not really as much singing as it is more like freestyle poetry and the creativity is not really the sound but the words. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/103 "2004-04-24T22:43:01Z")
**Cisco** , Iā€™m still interested in seeing you back up your earlier claim. I quoted it a few posts back if you donā€™t remember (post # 74). ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/104 "2004-04-24T22:53:16Z")
Sure, Johnny. Here you go: ā€œNone of that is music because I donā€™t like it.ā€ Because letā€™s be honest, thatā€™s what all the arguments against rap here boil down to. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/105 "2004-04-24T22:58:37Z")
No, thatā€™s not what they boil down to at all. You either havenā€™t been reading the thread or youā€™re reneging on your claim. Which is fine, because it was a patently ridiculous one to make in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/106 "2004-04-24T23:30:16Z")
How about we go over some of the patently ridiculous claims in this thread, Johnny? > [@](#): > > Rap is just riffs stolen from great music and pasted together Complete and utter ignorance. Ever heard the roots? Ever heard the Blackeyed Peas? Ever heard MOST rap? Just because Puff Daddy had a few radio songs with beats that were basically ā€œcoversā€ doesnā€™t mean all rap is ā€œstolen.ā€ > [@](#): > > Everybody is entitled to their opinion. In MY opinion rap is crap without the c. Wow, I didnā€™t heard THAT in 1985ā€¦ > [@](#): > > by music, I mean bad poetry set to a stolen beat Jewel gets off the hook no problem but guys like KRS-One, Common, and Talib Kweli get lumped into the category of ā€œbad poetsā€ that ā€œsteal beats.ā€ Stealing is illegal. I donā€™t know one rapper that has ever gone to jail for ā€œstealing beats.ā€ > [@](#): > > Rap is not music, because it doesnā€™t have a tune. Hmmm, letā€™s see here. Tune: \* a succession of pleasing musical tones\*. Oh, I get it. Youā€™re saying rap is not music because you donā€™t like it. > [@](#): > > And rap is certainly patterned sounds, so itā€™s akin to music. But the patterns are not based on tone, so Iā€™ll continue to maintain that rap is not music. Oh theyā€™re not? Hmmmā€¦ Tone: 1 : vocal or musical sound of a specific quality \ \; especially : musical sound with respect to timbre and manner of expression 2 a : a sound of definite pitch and vibration b : WHOLE STEP 3 : accent or inflection expressive of a mood or emotion 4 : the pitch of a word often used to express differences of meaning Oops, looks like rap has tone. Must be music. Damn those kids these daysā€¦ > [@](#): > > And besides, Rap sucks Whoa, let me break out my slide rule to try and formulate and argument against this oneā€¦ > [@](#): > > Iā€™m even comfortable with calling rap ā€˜art,ā€™ since it seems half of people call ā€˜artā€™ today I would call ā€˜crap.ā€™ Thereā€™s no anti-rap sentiment on these boards! > [@](#): > > Iā€™m not sure how someone spewing things about bitches, hos, pimps, and magic sticks in nearly monotone voice qualifies. Right. Because we all know that all rap songs are about bitches, hoes, pimps, and magic sticks. Just like all Rockā€™nā€™Roll songs are about Satan. Any other greatly profound arguments as to why rap isnā€™t music? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2004, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/107 "2004-04-24T23:36:03Z")
Oh, and since those were the only claims against rap being music that I saw in this thread, and I think I sufficiently proved them all to be ā€œpatently ridiculousā€, Iā€™ll restate my claim that Beethoven, Billie Holliday, Led Zeppellin, Bob Marley, Johnny Cash, Ledbelly, The Ramones, Hank Williams Sr., Men At Work and Bad Religion arenā€™t music because _I-DONā€™T-LIKE-THEM._ ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/108 "2004-04-25T08:18:07Z")
I think from a lot of the posts here that people think that rap is simply someone talking or reciting a type of poetry with no musical backing. Do you realise that the vast majority of _good_ rappers write their music as well or does that not count? Surely if I write a song that has a beat and various instruments playing and didnā€™t add any vocals at all that is still considered to be music? So when you add any vocals, whether sung in the 'traditional sense or rapped, over the top of the backing music it is still music isnā€™t it? I think that the vast majority of (uninformed) opinions have been made on the basis of listening to chart rap which is akin to saying you think that all classical music is shit after hearing a muzak version of Beethovens fifth in a lift. Lets face it, you donā€™t like rap thats fine - but I am flabbergasted that you canā€™t see that in the everday definition of music, rap is music. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/109 "2004-04-25T08:21:56Z")
Iā€™d also like to add that IMHO about 95% of _all_ from _any_ genre is shit so unless you listen to a very broad range you are limiting yourself. I also am not a huge fan of rap but I find that on a board that is dedicated to fighting ignorance there seems to be a very ignorant attitude to whether rap counts as music or not. Do dictionary definitions mean anything anymore or can we just invent our own personal definitions now? ---
**Author:** ![unclviny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e274bd/32.png) [@unclviny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/unclviny)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/110 "2004-04-25T10:38:48Z")
Ok, ok, ok, Rap is (in your definition) music, but I (in my opinion) still think it sucks and I donā€™t think itā€™s music OR art!. Buh-bye Unclviny ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/111 "2004-04-25T11:25:28Z")
I think the argument has boiled down to whether it falls under the definition of music not personal taste and I think that it is quite obvious it does. Its nothing to do with ā€˜_your_ā€™ or ā€˜_their_ā€™ definition rather than ā€˜_the_ā€™ defintion of music. You do accept that in order to communicate properley we have to agree on a common meaning of a word or communication breaks down. Rap meets the dictionary definition of music, ergo it is music. If I called you a dick but my personal definition of ā€˜dickā€™ meant ā€˜really cool blokeā€™ would you be offended or not? ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/112 "2004-04-25T13:24:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by pool_ > please it is way easier to write good lyrics than it is to write and perform well on an instrumentā€¦yeah I am sure you could just pick up any instrument and be better than anyone who has been playing for years. It is posts like this that make me wonder why I bother. Iā€™m going to try to keep this from being pitworthy. **pool** , please tell me what happened here. Do you have some sort of memory problem which causes you to simply forget things moments after youā€™ve read them? Do you have some sort of condition giving you such a short attention span that you are rendered unable to concentrate on a thread? Or could you be so goddamn proud of your own ignorant opinions that you DONā€™T EVEN BOTHER TO READ A THREAD BEFORE POSTING IN IT??? Iā€™ve responded to this piece of crap a million times in this thread alone. So many people have bleated that same supposedly original thought that even if the content of your post had any merit, it would still be entirely useless. Since I doubt even now that youā€™ll bother checking out my other posts, Iā€™ll give you a brief rundown of the points Iā€™ve made in response to others posting the same glurge you have. Letā€™s call it ā€œWhy Youā€™re Wrong 101.ā€ There will be in the exam at the end of semester, so youā€™d better go over it carefully. I recommend you print it out, and review it each time you plan to post in this thread. - You seem to be presuming that playing an instrument is some sort of sacred skill, impossibly difficult. This is a ridiculous notion. Really, most pop music is incredibly simple. Most rock songs, for instance are very easy to play. How can you possibly claim some sort of high ground for music made by live instruments, when the most celebrated popular proponents of this music are hardly virtuosos? Ramones tracks are not hard to play. Who tracks, Rolling Stones tracks, Beatles tracks are not hard to play. You donā€™t need to be a genius to strum Yesterday, considered one of the greatest songs of the last century. This is another tragic part of this hip hop hatred: fans of rock n roll have forgotten that their music is meant to be simple and democratic. The glory of rock n roll was not some wanker listening to Pink Floyd in quadraphonic sound, but that any idiot could pick up a guitar and use it to express himself, using passion rather than technical proficiency. Go get on your fucking high horse about Classical music, but donā€™t dismiss hip hop as something requiring no talent (not true) when most other forms of popular music are equally as simple. Because Trey Anastasio isnā€™t popular music. Go tell some rock greats they were talentless before you start criticising hip hop for its simplicity. - You denigrate lyric writing, again odd. Forget hip hop for the moment, letā€™s look at Bob Dylan. Dylanā€™s songs are ridiculously easy to play. I could play ā€œHey Mr Tambourine Manā€ in sixth grade after Iā€™d been playing guitar for a week. And hell, it sure ainā€™t his voice thatā€™s made him so respected. Do you think maybe that lyric writing is a skill at least equal to playing an instrument? Or, no wait, are you going to try telling me that John Mayer, apparently a very skilled guitarist, is better than Dylan because Dylan is only some dumb lyric writer, but Mayer has _a real skill_? Give me a fucking break. - You ignore that rappers are not just lyricists. Rapping is a difficult skill, at least as difficult as playing an instrument. It also takes years of practice. Those guys you hear on MTV, even the worst rappers out there, have been developing the skill for years. And I tell you, itā€™s a lot harder than mastering the chords to ā€œI Wanna Be Sedated.ā€ Because, despite what you think, it is more about the sound than the words. Have you heard the word ā€˜flow?ā€™ It refers to the sound of a rappersā€™ words, and it is very important. Good rap is defined by the control a rapper has over their voice, their use of rhythm and the timbre and sound of their voice. This is not to say that lyrics are unimportant, just secondary to the actual sound of the voice. You may think you can rap, despite having no practice. I call on you to put your money where your mouth is - Iā€™ll upload an original instrumental as an mp3, and you can show us how good you are. Get a mic, do your own song. Hey, if itā€™s so easy weā€™ll become world famous. Just remember to say ā€œblingā€ a lot :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Most people have at least a little singing talent, but all that aside the majority of rap I have heard is not really as much singing as it is more like freestyle poetry and the creativity is not really the sound but the words. As I said, it is both, but you are ignoring the other skills required. Letā€™s have a look at rapper Kanye West: - Kanye West released his debut album this year. When it was released, he had three songs in the U.S. top 20 singles chart. He is a rapper, a producer and a writer. He wrote every track on the album. He produced every track on the album. He raps on every song on the album. He has written, co-written or produced songs for D12, Ludacris, Alicia Keys, Jay-Z and Talib Kweli, among others. He plays the roles of David/Bacharach, Mick Jagger and Brian Eno all in one. And youā€™re saying heā€™s not talented because he canā€™t strap on a guitar and bust out 3 chords like John Lennon could? Iā€™m fucking sick of having to defend this music all the time. Why must it only be hip hop that has to maintain an impossibly perfect standard? No one goes around claiming rock n roll is shit because of the presence of Bon Jovi and Good Charlotte. Yet someone sees one Puffy video and starts telling the world that hip hop has no value. No one goes around saying rock lyrics are meaningless just because they hear a Linkin Park song. But one party track and suddenly hip hop is all about guns and hos. Or this, posted by **Snooooopy** : > [@](#): > > I donā€™t have a problem with sampling as a form of creativity, but I am frequently disappointed by how incredibly lazy so many rap producers and/or electronica artists are. No one criticises guitarists because there are unimaginative ones like those in Matchbox 20 or Train. No one says ā€œI have no problem with guitar playing as a form of creativity, but I am frequently disappointed by how banal so many rock artists are.ā€ Why must rap be the only genre that is consistently judged by its lowest examples rather than its highest? It is truly shameful the ignorance shown in this thread. Even after people who have studied music have posted that they consider rap to be music (Iā€™m not appealing to their authority, but that they have made good arguments based on sound principles and years of study), people continue posting the same ignorant arguments. How sad that many of these posters can sensibly debate the merits of abortion or the death penalty, but when confronted with a form of music they donā€™t like they start rabidly screaming ā€œitā€™s not music!ā€ and ā€œit takes no talent.ā€ **pool** , **unclviny** , **Johnny Bravo** , **Alcatraz** , **Hail Ants** , others: grow the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/113 "2004-04-25T13:46:02Z")
**gex gex** , I take my hat off to you and offer you the most heartfelt of my respect, well said my friend. šŸ˜ƒ I constantly have arguments with people about similar subjects, usually the use of the dreaded ā€˜machineā€™ that ā€˜makesā€™ music. I have no idea how someone could be so dense as to think that music made on a computer is any more or less relevant than music played on a traditional instrument. Newsflash - it _is_ an instrument and can be used as well or as badly as any other instrument in existence and takes a long time to become an expert. I wonder if the guy who invented the piano had problems like this with the harpsichord fans? If the only examples of a genre of music you have are gleaned from the pop charts can you try and remember that in all probability it is a bad example. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/114 "2004-04-25T17:25:13Z")
> [@WILLASS](#): > > I think the argument has boiled down to whether it falls under the definition of music not personal taste and I think that it is quite obvious it does. Its nothing to do with ā€˜_your_ā€™ or ā€˜_their_ā€™ definition rather than ā€˜_the_ā€™ defintion of music. You do accept that in order to communicate properley we have to agree on a common meaning of a word or communication breaks down. Rap meets the dictionary definition of music, ergo it is music. If I called you a dick but my personal definition of ā€˜dickā€™ meant ā€˜really cool blokeā€™ would you be offended or not? Not only does it meet the dictionary definition, it meets any practical definition. Rap is treated as music by its creators, by the record companies, by record stores, by journalists & reviewers, and by the public in general. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/115 "2004-04-25T22:37:09Z")
Sorry guys I guess your right talking to a looped song is really hard. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/116 "2004-04-25T23:43:14Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Sorry guys I guess your right talking to a looped song is really hard. :rolleyes: I suggest you take any further comments to the pit. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/117 "2004-04-25T23:57:40Z")
haha it is to laugh šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![WILLASS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/54ee81/32.png) [@WILLASS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WILLASS)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/118 "2004-04-26T06:44:54Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Sorry guys I guess your right talking to a looped song is really hard. :rolleyes: Your ignorance on this subject is staggering, I doff my hat to you sir. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2004, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/119 "2004-04-26T06:49:09Z")
thanks baby ---
**Author:** ![kevisback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc8723/32.png) [@kevisback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevisback)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2023, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974/120 "2023-08-21T22:32:51Z")
funny how things change rapi s now one of the most versatile genres out there [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-is-the-most-versatile-music/240974.md?page=7)