# Rap Music Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 28, 2002, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339 "2002-06-28T07:21:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![A1C\_Joe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@A1C\_Joe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A1C_Joe)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/1 "2002-06-28T07:21:57Z")
Rap music is very popular. But what i cant stand is the background music for almost every song. Its the same couple of measures played over and over throughout the whole song. Sometimes for the chorus too. I think it was missy eliot that had a song with only 2 high pitched accoustic guitar chords throughout the whole song. I dislike most rap songs because it’s braindead music. The beat never changes either. The only rapsongs that i really like are ones that are remotely complex. Are there any rap songs (im not talking about the rock-rap genre ie. Limp Bizkit, RATM) that use all or mostly tangible instruments? Are there any rap songs with music, not always lyrics, that make your brain work? ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/2 "2002-06-28T09:29:44Z")
Certainly there is more complex hip-hop than what you hear on the radio. I’d recommend anything by The Roots, De La Soul, or anything Dan the Automator had a hand in (his Wanna Buy a Monkey collection featuring various artists is an excelent start, as is Bombay the Hard Way which is remixed hindi instrumentals). Endtroducing by DJ Shadow is also excelent, but entirely instrumental. Jurassic 5 are the best hip-hop group around right now, but I wouldn’t recommend them to anyone who finds the music simplistic- they are _very_ old school. (this is a good thing, though…) Actually, the “simplistic music” is not all that simplistic, the rythm and flow is much more complex than most non-fans appreciate until they get into it. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/3 "2002-06-28T11:33:47Z")
If you want to get into the “African” roots of hip-hop/rap, this make a certain amount of sense. If you listen to recordings of a lot of tribal music, it seems very simplistic and repetitive. It’s not, really, but it seems that way. And modern rap isn’t supposed to be about the music, but the lyrics and the message that is sent through them. My uneducated 2 cents. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/4 "2002-06-28T16:30:55Z")
i think rap is about the music just as much as the lyrics. some artists may not make very good music, but no genre has artists who don’t produce utter crap. although **grendel72** ’s list covers the cream of the crop, i simply must add **outkast** to the list. have a listen to ‘funkin around’ from their latest album _dre and big boi present…_ as a good example of hip hop with music that is just as complex as other forms. not that simplicity is a bad thing. hip-hop is a very rhythm based style of music. try focussing to the bass and the beats rather than the melody line. the music is about creating a groove rather than a catchy tune. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/5 "2002-06-28T16:33:32Z")
also: **gorillaz** make hip-hop influenced music with a stronger focus on melody. you could try some of their stuff if you haven’t heard it all over the radio. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/6 "2002-06-28T17:01:42Z")
If you want hip hop that uses “tangible” instruments (a turntable isn’t tangible??), The Roots are a good place to start, along with the Fugees, Digable Planets, and G. Love & Special Sauce. Rap that doesn’t use traditional band instrumentation but always boasts ear-bending production and arrangement: Can’t go wrong with Public Enemy or KRS-One. Time for me to exit, Terminator X-it. ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_Hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f0a364/32.png) [@Bad\_Hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_Hat)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/7 "2002-06-28T17:03:56Z")
I went off in Defense of rap [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=61036) last year… I stick by most of what i said there, and would add that if you are interested in experiencing some hip-hop that is more musically and melodically dynamic, you should check out The Roots. Who in addition to being a live band (not just an MC and a sampler and a DJ), are a GREAT band, who as a unit and as individuals perform with everybody from Erika Baduh, D’angelo, Nikka Costa, Jay-Z, Roy Hargrove, Common, and just about everybody else in contemporary Hip-Hop, R&B, and Jazz. Its still got repetitive bits, but i think you’d fid it more excitingthat Missy, in terms of the things you 're interested in hearing. I’d also like to try and make a point, by way of analogizing, about some of the complaints you have expressed with hip-hop. Not liking hip-hop because it often isn’t melodic and dynamic in the same way that other musical forms are, is akin to not liking… say… cubism, becasue the figures don’t look like real people, and the perspective is all screwy. In other words, its sort of an aesthetic within the genre. I don’t say this to defend lazy hip-hop producers who are truly just dull and repetitive (like there are cubists who are just… not good), but a lot of the dynamic interplay in hip-hop isn’t in melody, and in the best hip-hop the textural depth is in the rhythm and in the MCs and the way things are layered, and what element comes in when, and how they build and lock together, and generally, how the MC creates polyrhythms and syncopations against the beat, and varies them from verse to verse. I don’t wanna get into another Eminem war, but if you listen to his best work, he is more rhythmicly dynamic and syncopated within a song that a lot of rappers are over an entire album. Theres a lot of subtlety in it sometimes. If it helps, ignore what the MC is actually talking about and imagine the voice as another percussion instrument in the mix. A good MC with surprise you constantly, and make you realize that MCing is a lot harder and more artful than its detractors would haveyou believe, where as a bad MC will sound really repetitive. my $.02 CJ ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_Hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f0a364/32.png) [@Bad\_Hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_Hat)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/8 "2002-06-28T17:41:48Z")
I’d also like to gloat to all those who said Eminem would be gone in a year or two and point out that his latest (arguably BEST) album, sold 1.3 million copies in its first week out. Never one to associate sales with quality, i realize that this doesn’t validate any of my pro-eminem stances, but looking back over that old thread I noticed how many people said he was a hack and would be forgotten about in 2 years, and it seems that scenario hasn’t played out so far. /gloat 😃 CJ ---
**Author:** ![cainxinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7bcc69/32.png) [@cainxinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cainxinth)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/9 "2002-06-28T18:35:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by A1C Joe \* > **But what i cant stand is the background music for almost every song. Its the same couple of measures played over and over throughout the whole song. Sometimes for the chorus too.** Thats called a loop. Its a structural component of most rap music. Rap music originiated in the inner cities with groups like Grand Master Flash, Cold Crush Bros, and Africa Bambataa who had no access to traditional instruments. So they took what was readily available, turntables, mics, and LPs, and invented a new form of music out of thin air. Most of the hip hop you hear today still embraces its roots and uses loops, cuts, scratches, hooks, and rhymes. > [@](#): > > **I dislike most rap songs because it’s braindead music.** I dislike most people that make dismissive generalizations founded on their own ingnorance because they are braindead. > [@](#): > > \*\*Are there any rap songs with music, not always lyrics, that make your brain work? \*\* Well, assuming your brain does in fact work try any of these: Old School- **Run DMC, Slick Rick, Grandmaster Flash, Big Daddy Kane** Southern aka Dirty South- **Outkast, Goodie Mob** Abstract- **Deltron 3030, Peanut Butter Wolf, Prince Paul** Gangsta- **2Pac, Notorious BIG, Dr. Dre, Snoop Dog, Jay-Z, Nas** Independent- **The Roots, Jurassic 5, Solesides aka Quannum, The Pharcyde, Blackalicious, Kool Keith, Common, Mos Def, A Tribe Called Quest** Turntablist- **X-Ecutioners, Kid Koala, Invisbl Scratch Piklz, Z-Trip** Trip Hop- **DJ Shadow, Dan the Automator, Waxolutionists** Rock- **Urban Dance Squad, Rage Against the Machine** Jazz- **US3, Gill Scott-Heron** Punk- **Gorillaz** Latin- **Ozomotli** Drum 'n Bass- **Zion I** Funk- **The Coup, Del** Soul- **Brainfreeze** Last and certainly least: Hip Pop- **Nelly and Ja Rule** ---
**Author:** ![Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/db5fbb/32.png) [@Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fred)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/10 "2002-06-28T20:16:45Z")
I’d like to address the following criticisms. > [@](#): > > Its the same couple of measures played over and over throughout the whole song. The beat never changes either. I’ll take the last, first. The beat never changes in **any** song in **any** genre. In fact, I’d say that rap is right up there with Jazz vis a vis syncopation and improvisation within a given beat structure. Certainly more than, say, Classical, Rock, or Pop. Most all music (outside of ultra-modernist compositions) sets a beat before the song begins (Written as 4/4 time, or something similar) and sticks with it. This is the reason why written music has measures that aren’t constantly changing in size. As for your first concern, sir, I find it highly rediculous. Repititive music makes up a hefty percentage of **The Greatest Music Of All Time**. Think Beethoven’s Fifth, Sweet Jane by the Velvet Underground, practically everything by The Ramones or The Strokes, and most electronic music. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/11 "2002-06-28T20:38:55Z")
N.E.R.D is pretty good stuff. The Neptunes rule. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/12 "2002-06-28T20:45:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ll take the last, first. The beat never changes in any song in any genre. You’re kidding, right? > [@](#): > > Repititive music makes up a hefty percentage of The Greatest Music Of All Time. Think Beethoven’s Fifth, Now I know you’re kidding. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/13 "2002-06-28T21:50:57Z")
No single piece of music fulfills ALL the needs one has of music, and it’s wrong to expect it to. HipHop may not float your melodic boat, but what it does offer is something, apparently, I need; I take a break from it for non-HipHop music when I get tired of that and need some melody. In other words, it’s pointless to criticize it for not being melodic enough; there are plenty of sources for melody. You get a kind of visceral, tribal heartbeat kinda thing from music with that kind of cyclic beat; appreciate it for what it IS, not what it isn’t. (Now lissening to Ltj Bukem: way beaty AND melodic.) ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2002, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/14 "2002-06-28T21:55:23Z")
N.E.R.D. roolz! Also, current favorite thing, can’t get it out of the CD player, probable ten best for this year, Cee-Lo!!! ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/15 "2002-06-29T00:52:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Most all music (outside of ultra-modernist compositions) sets a beat before the song begins (Written as 4/4 time, or something similar) and sticks with it. Just to reinforce my point, off the top of my head, here are several well-known pop songs that contain significant time signature changes, or tempo changes significant enough to noticeably differ: The Beatles: Happiness Is A Warm Gun, Yer Blues, I Want You (She’s So Heavy), She Said She Said, Bungalow Bill, Here Comes the Sun Derek and the Dominoes: Layla Queen: Bohemian Rhapsody Rush: YYZ, Spirit of Radio Pink Floyd: One Of My Turns, Money Kansas: Carry On Wayward Son Led Zeppelin: The Ocean, Fool In The Rain, Stairway to Heaven Blue Oyster Cult: Don’t Fear The Reaper And that’s just off the top of my head. No song in any genre changes beat? No way. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/16 "2002-06-29T06:50:42Z")
**cainxinth** , your list isn’t bad, except for the end. Why would you recommend Nelly? That dude has no talent, and frankly, if you have two hit songs and they’re based on nursery rhymes, you suck. EI, EI, OOhhhhh and Shimmy-Shimmy Cocoa Puff, anyone? :rolleyes: Talk about uninspiring. Also, this dreck they call hip-hop now is terrible. If you must listen to rap, listen to old-school stuff, back when they at least had something original to say and were actually somewhat innovative. ---
**Author:** ![tetsusaru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f14d63/32.png) [@tetsusaru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tetsusaru)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/17 "2002-06-29T15:16:26Z")
Haven`t we been here already, with the `I hate rap" thread of a couple of months back? That one ended in tears, as I recall. It`s really very simple, but let me spell it out for you: if you don`t like it, don`t listen to it. I personally don`t like rap: I don`t like parsnips either, but until someone comes to my house with a gun and forces me to eat one, I`m not starting any “Why do parsnips suck?” threads. Clear enough for you? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/18 "2002-06-29T16:06:16Z")
Oh yeah. It’s crystal clear. Don’t say ANYTHING even remotely derogatory about rap, even though the OP is demonstrating a decided dislike of the form that rap has taken today. :rolleyes: You know what? Rap was awesome in the 80s, when it was fresh and original. In the 90s, gangsta rap was another step in the right direction, because you always knew you would be offended and/or shocked, but you never missed the message: things aren’t right in my neighborhood. It became even more of a social form of music. But, man, this new stuff is soooooooo formulaic. It’s the Backstreet Boys of rap. It’s all the same. I have friends who listen to rap and I borrow their stuff, in the hopes that one day it reverts back to something new and innovative, but somehow I don’t think that day will come anytime soon. So the new stuff sucks, IMO. And if you don’t like my opinion you can take it to the Pit. M’kay? ---
**Author:** ![Bad\_Hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f0a364/32.png) [@Bad\_Hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bad_Hat)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/19 "2002-06-29T18:14:52Z")
I’m gonna respectfully chime in in defense of recent hip-hop and rap here. Yeah, the good ole days always seem brighter, cuz you forget about all of the awful stuff that was going on and he gems shine thru, but there is some really exciting stuff going on now. Pretty much anything associated with [Okay Player](http://www.okayplayer.com) , like the Roots, Slum Village, Common, Black Star, Talib and Mos Def (one of the most talented performers alive, by the way, he’s on broadway right now in Top Dog/Underdog). Those guys are keepin’ in reeeaaal in the realest sense. Its gritty, its aware of its heritage, its committed to innovation and craftsmanship, and its funky as hell. Nelly and Jay Z and Mystikal are just disco, they’re fine, not terribly interesting, but not as bad as the Backstreet Boys, I don’t think. Ludacris has a lot of generally neglected potential, but is very talented, and Missy Elliot is pretty damn talented, if repetitivesometimes. As far as GOOD mainstream hip hop, Outkast are pretty Unbelieveable, and Eminem and Dre are both still (15 years on in Dre’s case), making work that ranks along side thier best. Even if dre never lets you forget it for a second. CJ ---
**Author:** ![grendel72](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/91b2a8/32.png) [@grendel72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grendel72)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339/20 "2002-06-29T20:24:02Z")
**Airman** , I know where you’re coming from. There is still plenty of great hip-hop being produced, the problem is that rap has reached the point rock was at when rap started- the good stuff can’t be heard on the radio for the most part. Outkast is the only popular act that is genuinely brilliant, Emenem has a decent sense of rythm but his rhymes are _terrible_ (and I’m not even talking about the cheesy “shock value” lyrics), Missy Elliot has made the same damn song over and over (it was good the first couple of times). A question for those praising N.E.R.D.: I’ve only heard the songs Lapdance and Rockstar, and had placed them in the Limp Bizkit/ Papa Roach rap/metal heap which I’m not too fond of. Do their other songs sound any different/better? I know they have produced a lot of pop style hip-hop, and Pharrel rapped on that Busta Rhymes song. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rap-music-question/116339.md?page=2)