# Rape at Abu Ghraib **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953 "2009-05-28T18:47:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/21 "2009-05-28T20:33:24Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > there are reasons to believe now that the SPE was cooked, and it was undoubtedly unscientific and invalid as a study. Really? I’m interested in learning more about that. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/22 "2009-05-28T20:34:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > In his defense, he can always say, with some validity, that he wanted to downplay his characterizations of the content so as not to enflame things any more in Iraq. It would be kind of defeating the purpose to say, “I don’t want to give fuel to the terrorists by realeasing these pictures, but holy FUCK are they bad.” ^^This ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/23 "2009-05-28T20:45:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > One does wonder why, if there is photographic evidence of soldiers raping prisoners, there have not been court martials, convictions, and serious punishments. > > It is worth noting that under the UCMJ, rape is a capital offense. Why are these charges not being laid? If all this is true, I wouldassume there were no prosecution because producing the evidence in open court would be too embarrassing and inflammatory – the exact same reasons given now for withholding the pics. Obama did say, IIRC, that the perpetrators had already been prosecuted, correct? Or was he talking about the perpretators of the previous photos that were already released? ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/24 "2009-05-28T20:49:11Z")
There’s speculation that some of these photos may have been released already: [http://www.atlargely.com/atlargely/2009/05/photos-obama-wont-release-include-images-of-rape.html](http://www.atlargely.com/atlargely/2009/05/photos-obama-wont-release-include-images-of-rape.html) (NSFW) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/25 "2009-05-28T20:49:21Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > One does wonder why, if there is photographic evidence of soldiers raping prisoners, there have not been court martials, convictions, and serious punishments. > > It is worth noting that under the UCMJ, rape is a capital offense. Why are these charges not being laid? There isn’t the slightest chance that an American soldier will be sentenced to death for such a crime committed on an Iraqi. IIRC, an American soldier was recently convicted of rape and murder, and received a life sentence. The hard right would go blazing apeshit and would twist themselves into knots finding some way to blame this on the DFH. And they would, you can bet on that, I could turn on the TV that very night and know for sure that Hannity was blaming me and mine. ---
**Author:** ![Carl\_Corey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Carl\_Corey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carl_Corey)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/26 "2009-05-28T20:56:33Z")
Yeah, but that soldier was prosecuted in the civilian courts, not under UCMJ ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/27 "2009-05-28T20:58:56Z")
The White House and Pentagon are denying this is truth: [http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jjY6QswNZWFWxRaRdKhoxlNC5ONA](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5jjY6QswNZWFWxRaRdKhoxlNC5ONA) [http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSN28341544](http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSN28341544) ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/28 "2009-05-28T21:02:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Even a cursory knowledge of your posting would render such a supposition absurd. Thanks. I’m glad to have a reputation for standing up for what is right (at least that’s what I think you’re saying), but I don’t expect everyone who reads my posts to have any idea who I am. Re: the experiment: [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment#Criticism_of_the_experiment) is a good place to start: > [@](#): > > Some of the experiment’s critics argued that participants based their behavior on how they were expected to behave, or modelled it after stereotypes they already had about the behavior of prisoners and guards. In other words, the participants were merely engaging in role-playing. Another problem with the experiment was certain guards, such as “John Wayne”, changed their behavior because of wanting to conform to the behavior that they thought Zimbardo was trying to elicit. In response, Zimbardo claimed that even if there was role-playing initially, participants internalized these roles as the experiment continued. > > Additionally, it was criticized on the basis of ecological validity. Many of the conditions imposed in the experiment were arbitrary and may not have correlated with actual prison conditions, including blindfolding incoming “prisoners”, not allowing them to wear underwear, not allowing them to look out of windows and not allowing them to use their names. Zimbardo argued that prison is a confusing and dehumanizing experience and that it was necessary to enact these procedures to put the “prisoners” in the proper frame of mind; however, it is difficult to know how similar the effects were to an actual prison, and the experiment’s methods would be difficult to reproduce exactly so that others could test them. > > Some said that the study was too deterministic: reports described significant differences in the cruelty of the guards, the worst of whom came to be nicknamed “John Wayne.” (This guard alleges he started the escalation of events between “guards” and “prisoners” after he began to emulate a character from the Paul Newman film Cool Hand Luke. He further intensified his actions because he was nicknamed “John Wayne” though he was trying to mimic actor Strother Martin who played the role of the sadistic “Captain” in the movie.) Most of the other guards were kinder and often did favors for prisoners. Zimbardo made no attempt to explain or account for these differences. > > Also, it has been argued that selection bias may have played a role in the results. Researchers from Western Kentucky University recruited students for a study using an advertisement similar to the one used in the Stanford Prison Experiment, with and without the words “prison life.” It was found that students volunteering for a prison life study possessed dispositions toward abusive behavior. > > Additionally, the sample size was very small, with only twenty-four participants taking part over a relatively short period of time. This reality means that it is difficult to generalize across a wider scale. > > Finally, the study was never published in a peer-reviewed journal. Lacking peer-review, it is difficult to interpret the meaningfulness of the results. [Here](http://www.angelfire.com/or/sociologyshop/frozim.html) is a detailed criticism of it by a prominent social psychologist. There used to be an interview on the Stanford newspaper’s website with a participant who said basically, IIRC, that the experimenters more or less told the guards to be abusive. I can’t find it now though. \*Ahh, [found it](http://www.stanforddaily.com/cgi-bin/?p=1017752). He was a consultant. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/29 "2009-05-28T21:02:20Z")
The Pentagon is denying this story in such a weaselly way that, IMO, nearly confirms it. [Reuters story here](http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSN28341544): > [@](#): > > Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said the Daily Telegraph newspaper had shown “an inability to get the facts right”. > > “That news organization has completely mischaracterized the images,” Whitman told reporters. “None of the photos in question depict the images that are described in that article.” The _Telegraph_ story said the pictures contained > [@](#): > > “torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.” So, first of all, if none of the photoes contained torture OR Abuse OR rape Or other indecencies, then they would have been released. Therefor we can be confident that while the photos contained one or more of those elements, no one photo actually contained torture AND Abuse AND rape AND other indecencies. If they could have made a clear statement that said flatly, “There are no pictures of the rape of prisoners”, they would have. They did not say so because they don’t want to be caught in a lie later. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/30 "2009-05-28T22:01:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I already assumed that rape occurred at Abu Ghraib. So this doesn’t shock me. Same here. > [@RickJay](#): > > One does wonder why, if there is photographic evidence of soldiers raping prisoners, there have not been court martials, convictions, and serious punishments. > > It is worth noting that under the UCMJ, rape is a capital offense. Why are these charges not being laid? Hasn’t the military been pretty much ignoring rape ( and sexual assault in general ) committed by its members for years ? Decades ? Every so often I see news stories about widespread rapes and sexual assaults at military academies that get ignored, rapes of female soldiers by male soldiers all over Iraq that get ignored. I long ago got the impression it had become something the military authorities decided to just pretend never happens rather do anything about it, unless they had no choice at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/31 "2009-05-28T22:07:40Z")
Didn’t Lindsay Graham say that he had looked at photos containing rape? Or am I misremembering? ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/32 "2009-05-28T22:32:12Z")
> [@BrightNShiny](#): > > Didn’t Lindsay Graham say that he had looked at photos containing rape? Or am I misremembering? In 2004 (around the same time as Seymour Hersh was talking about there being videos of child rape), Graham was quoted as saying, “The American public needs to understand we’re talking about rape and murder here. We’re not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience.” ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/33 "2009-05-28T22:45:02Z")
“Tell us about your husband’s connection to Terrorist Group X or we will rape your son, make you watch and then distribute these photos to your neighborhood.” I think that’s what Sy was saying back when the story “broke.” Man the media really screwed the pooch didn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/34 "2009-05-28T22:46:09Z")
This info isn’t new. I surprised so many in this thread sound like it is. Added to what others have cited and talked about I’ll add this from '05 > [@](#): > > What is shown on the photographs and videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon has blocked from release? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images, “I mean, I looked at them last night, and they’re hard to believe.” They show acts “that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane,” he added. > > A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” Rumsfeld then commented, “If these are released to the public, obviously it’s going to make matters worse.” > > The photos were among thousands turned over by the key “whistleblower” in the scandal, Specialist Joseph M. Darby. Just a few that were released to the press sparked the Abu Ghraib abuse scandal last year, and the video images are said to be even more shocking. [http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article\_display.jsp?vnu\_content\_id=1001218842](http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001218842) ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/35 "2009-05-28T22:47:12Z")
Note that the Daily Telegraph is a conservative newspaper whose reliability is typically held in low regard here on the Dope. I’d be curious to see if other sources emerge. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/36 "2009-05-28T22:48:49Z")
Hedley Lamarr:“You said Rape twice.” Bushwacker:“I _like_ Rape!” ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/37 "2009-05-28T23:04:59Z")
It was just some bad apples. Our military is now 100% apple free. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/38 "2009-05-29T02:12:47Z")
I hear that Sean Hannity is now volunteering to be anally raped with a broomstick to prove that it doesn’t come close to being torture. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/39 "2009-05-29T02:34:58Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > I hear that Sean Hannity is now volunteering to be anally raped with a broomstick to prove that it doesn’t come close to being torture. I would donate money to a charity to make that happen! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953/40 "2009-05-29T03:25:04Z")
I’m finding it a bit hard to believe that the military is looking the other way about rape, especially if there is clear evidence. I’m also finding it a bit hard to believe that Obama would do the same thing, regardless of how expedient it would supposedly be. However, I’m finding the rationalizations of those who DO think this is true and believe that Obama is going along with it all…ironic. It seems more than vaguely similar to the much decried Bush Apologists™ from just a few years ago… (Of course, for my part, I don’t think Obama would EVER go along with something like this, if there was clear evidence…but MMV I suppose) -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-at-abu-ghraib/497953.md?page=3)