# "Rape culture" and "date rape" debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203 "2015-08-28T19:13:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/201 "2015-09-06T03:22:27Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > If a man has been accused of rape 5 times prior, that should also be precluded as consideration by the jury…if I’m to follow your logic. > > Which is ludicrous, short-sighted, and unjust. Barring certain circumstances, [the priors would **not** be admissible](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/evidence-prior-convictions-admissible-against-defendants-who-testify.html). ---
**Author:** ![SantaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@SantaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SantaMan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/202 "2015-09-06T05:26:08Z")
[An article on the move from politics to culture wars:](http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/culture-war-the-narcissism-of-minor-differences/14652#.VdyWU5cVa2N) It seems pretty clear that disputes over values, lifestyles and the question of what is the biggest ‘cultural threat’ now dominate public life. The political vocabulary that served Western societies pretty well during the nineteenth century and most of the twentieth century has become exhausted, and it has been displaced by the idiom of culture. Even disputes that were once discussed through the rhetoric of class, social injustice or ideology now only come alive when they are communicated through the grammar of culture. Leftists attack the ‘old boy culture’ of the posh, Oxford-based Bullingdon Club or the ‘culture of cronyism’ of Etonians, while those on the right criticise the ‘culture of entitlement’ or ‘dependency culture’ of the less well off. Hostility to the police is frequently expressed through a denunciation of their ‘canteen culture’. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/203 "2015-09-06T06:07:03Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Belief and criminal conviction are not the same thing. > > Bill Cosby has not been formally charged with rape, by any of his 40+ accusers. Your belief that he is a rapist is not based on the scrutiny of a public criminal trial. “Rape culture” is just a lazy way for you to say you are convinced Bill Cosby is a rapist and the fact that he isn’t in jail means we live in a society that condones rape. > > Which, of course, is ludicrous. You can’t be convicted of a crime you have yet to stand trial for… What is crazy is some loon thinking that Cosby didn’t rape anyone when he clearly admitted he gave a person drugs to knock her out so he could have sex with them. That’s not consent, that’s RAPE. The fact that this pathetic Rape culture can’t even name it makes it oh so convenient for rape apologists to weasel their way out of the truth and point to no indictment as equating innocence. Now that’s ludicrous and morally dishonest. A Rape Weasel. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/204 "2015-09-06T06:19:42Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > psssst…these people don’t believe Bill Cosby is guilty. They don’t. Morally dishonest rape apologists. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/205 "2015-09-06T12:38:16Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > If a man has been accused of rape 5 times prior, that should also be precluded as consideration by the jury…if I’m to follow your logic. > > Which is ludicrous, short-sighted, and unjust. No, because that could be actually relevant. Consensual sexual history cannot be relevant. Promiscuity is irrelevant to rape. Here’s what would be relevant to the defense - if the accuser had a history of making demonstrably false rape accusations. But not promiscuity. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/206 "2015-09-06T12:43:08Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > It’s been 3 days and no one can tell me how Bill Cosby could be believed over 40 accusers---- no rape culture? Get over yourselves. The thread was dead. Who says anyone who thinks there is no rape culture even read your question? Or that anyone at all even found it interesting? > [@Andiethewestie](#): > > They don’t. Morally dishonest rape apologists. Who is “they”? Please cite. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/207 "2015-09-06T17:17:25Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, because that could be actually relevant. Consensual sexual history cannot be relevant. Promiscuity is irrelevant to rape. > > Here’s what would be relevant to the defense - if the accuser had a history of making demonstrably false rape accusations. But not promiscuity. I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/208 "2015-09-06T17:18:53Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > What is crazy is some loon thinking that Cosby didn’t rape anyone when he clearly admitted he gave a person drugs to knock her out so he could have sex with them. That’s not consent, that’s RAPE. The fact that this pathetic Rape culture can’t even name it makes it oh so convenient for rape apologists to weasel their way out of the truth and point to no indictment as equating innocence. Now that’s ludicrous and morally dishonest. A Rape Weasel. Bill Cosby is a rapist. I’m 99% sure of that. But without any of the 40+ women having pressed charges, we can’t say he’s a convicted rapist. That’s not "rape culture,’ it’s life. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2015, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/209 "2015-09-06T17:23:35Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > I disagree. With which part, and why? ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/210 "2015-09-07T02:21:35Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The thread was dead. Who says anyone who thinks there is no rape culture even read your question? Or that anyone at all even found it interesting? > Who is “they”? Please cite. Oh isn’t this precious? If you read the thread it wasn’t dead, just guys with their dicks out rolled them back in their pants. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/211 "2015-09-07T02:26:47Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Bill Cosby is a rapist. I’m 99% sure of that. > > But without any of the 40+ women having pressed charges, we can’t say he’s a convicted rapist. That’s not "rape culture,’ it’s life. Deal with it. And once again you’re conflating legal jargon with truth. I don’t care if he’s a “convicted rapist” in the eyes of the law or not. He admitted to Rape and apologists want to say he didn’t. Continuing to pander to this guy is rape culture. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/212 "2015-09-07T04:08:46Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Oh isn’t this precious? If you read the thread it wasn’t dead I can read timestamps. > [@Andiethewestie](#): > > just guys with their dicks out rolled them back in their pants. To whom are you referring? ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/213 "2015-09-07T05:22:11Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > No, because that could be actually relevant. Consensual sexual history cannot be relevant. Promiscuity is irrelevant to rape. > > Here’s what would be relevant to the defense - if the accuser had a history of making demonstrably false rape accusations. But not promiscuity. Behavior is a reflection of one’s character. If the critical element in a prosecution’s case is based on the legitimacy of the accuser, then character concerns, including past behavior, are eminently relevant. This of course reflects the fact that juries are comprised of _people_. People judge your character based (in part) on your past behavior. Allowing only side to address character concerns is unjust. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/214 "2015-09-07T05:35:28Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Barring certain circumstances, [the priors would **not** be admissible](http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/evidence-prior-convictions-admissible-against-defendants-who-testify.html). The link in you quote addresses the rule criminal cases, generally. Rape is different. For example, under FRE 413, the court can admit any evidence of other allegations of sexual assault: > [@](#): > > Rule 413. [Similar Crimes in Sexual-Assault Cases](https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_413) > (a) Permitted Uses. In a criminal case in which a defendant is accused of a sexual assault, the court may admit evidence that the defendant committed any other sexual assault. The evidence may be considered on any matter to which it is relevant. > > (b) Disclosure to the Defendant. If the prosecutor intends to offer this evidence, the prosecutor must disclose it to the defendant, including witnesses’ statements or a summary of the expected testimony. The prosecutor must do so at least 15 days before trial or at a later time that the court allows for good cause. > > (c) Effect on Other Rules. This rule does not limit the admission or consideration of evidence under any other rule. > > (d) Definition of “Sexual Assault.” In this rule and Rule 415, “sexual assault” means a crime under federal law or under state law (as “state” is defined in 18 U.S.C. § 513) involving: > > (1) any conduct prohibited by 18 U.S.C. chapter 109A; > > (2) contact, without consent, between any part of the defendant’s body — or an object — and another person’s genitals or anus; > > (3) contact, without consent, between the defendant’s genitals or anus and any part of another person’s body; > > (4) deriving sexual pleasure or gratification from inflicting death, bodily injury, or physical pain on another person; or > > (5) an attempt or conspiracy to engage in conduct described in subparagraphs (1)–(4). ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/215 "2015-09-07T06:34:50Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I kinda’ sit in the middle on this issue but… > > …really? Lots of women have rape as part of their daily life? If that’s true then I’ll agree we have a culture of rape. > > Garrison Keillor once told a story that involved the people in Lake Wobegone having an argument. Something that he said that stuck with me: what do you do when both sides are absolutely right? > > On the one side women see some men get away with rape for lake of evidence or apathy, like the Steubenville case. This can lead to women being frustrated and/or scared and is extremely emotional. On the other side men see cases where other men get wrongly accused of rape and serve jail time. That’s also scary. It becomes further muddled because sex is such a powerful motivator. > > Both sides are right and it’s a tough topic to come up with a solution. And there’s a third side: In its 2010 [National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf), the CDC reported 620,000 female victims of “completed forced penetration” in the last 12 months, or 0.5%. [Page 18, Table 2.1] In the next table, it said 1,267,000 men were “made to penetrate,” or 1.1%. [Page 19, table 2.2.] So it’s possible women are sometimes perpetrators of sexual assault, and men are sometimes victims. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/216 "2015-09-07T08:18:05Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > The link in you quote addresses the rule criminal cases, generally. Rape is different. > > For example, under FRE 413, the court can admit any evidence of other allegations of sexual assault: Yes, they _can_, but admissibility in any individual case is still subject to the court’s discretion, and to be balanced by Rule 403. See [_United State v. Guardia_](http://www.law.harvard.edu/publications/evidenceiii/cases/us-v-guar.htm). The district court also properly concluded that the Rule 403 balancing test applies to evidence submitted under Rule 413. This conclusion is a legal determination that we review de novo. … Rule 403 allows a district court to exclude evidence “if its probative value is substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice” or other enumerated considerations, including confusion of the issues or undue delay. Fed. R. Evid. 403. Rule 403 applies to all evidence admitted in federal court, except in those rare instances when other rules make an exception to it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/217 "2015-09-07T12:40:25Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Behavior is a reflection of one’s character. > > If the critical element in a prosecution’s case is based on the legitimacy of the accuser, then character concerns, including past behavior, are eminently relevant. > > This of course reflects the fact that juries are comprised of _people_. People judge your character based (in part) on your past behavior. Allowing only side to address character concerns is unjust. Promiscuity has nothing to do with character and honesty. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/218 "2015-09-07T14:32:03Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > And there’s a third side: In its 2010 [National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey](http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf), the CDC reported 620,000 female victims of “completed forced penetration” in the last 12 months, or 0.5%. [Page 18, Table 2.1] In the next table, it said 1,267,000 men were “made to penetrate,” or 1.1%. [Page 19, table 2.2.] So it’s possible women are sometimes perpetrators of sexual assault, and men are sometimes victims. The thread is so bogged down in meaningless arguments over semantics and/or nothing (and you’ve misrepresented this stat on this board in the recent past, and and been corrected on it), such that it isn’t at all clear what you’re arguing against here, but it’s not “possible;” it’s an obvious objective fact that women are sometimes perpetrators of sexual assault, and that men are sometimes victims. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/219 "2015-09-07T18:28:56Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Yes, they _can_, but admissibility in any individual case is still subject to the court’s discretion, and to be balanced by Rule 403. > > See [_United State v. Guardia_](http://www.law.harvard.edu/publications/evidenceiii/cases/us-v-guar.htm). > > The district court also properly concluded that the Rule 403 balancing test applies to evidence submitted under Rule 413. This conclusion is a legal determination that we review de novo. … Rule 403 allows a district court to exclude evidence “if its probative value is substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice” or other enumerated considerations, including confusion of the issues or undue delay. Fed. R. Evid. 403. Rule 403 applies to all evidence admitted in federal court, except in those rare instances when other rules make an exception to it. True. But you need to look at the whole case, and the point I was making (rape is different): > [@](#): > > In most cases, though not in Rule 413 cases, the court must exclude propensity evidence despite its acknowledged relevance. Rule 404(b) prohibits the use of prior acts of a person “to prove the character of a person in order to show action in conformity therewith.” Fed. R. Evid. 404(b). Under Rule 413, however, evidence of a defendant’s other sexual assaults may be admitted “for its bearing on any matter to which it is relevant.” Fed. R. Evid. 413 (emphasis added). Thus, Rule 413 supersedes Rule 404(b)'s restriction and allows the government to offer evidence of a defendant’s prior conduct for the purpose of demonstrating a defendant’s propensity to commit the charged offense. In other words, in most cases, prior bad acts of the defendant are not admissible to prove he committed _this particular crime_ - he crime he’s on trial for. The reasoning is that admission of extraneous bad acts are so prejudicial that a jury might convict someone for the prior bad acts, rather than on the facts in the case he’s being tried for. But under 413 - sexual assault cases - those same acts _are_ admissible: > [@](#): > > The fact that Congress created Rule 413 can only mean that Congress intended to partially repeal the “concrete application” found in 404(b) for a subset of cases in which Congress found 404(b)'s rigid rule to be inappropriate. That conclusion is not surprising, given the fact that propensity evidence has a unique probative value in sexual assault trials and that such trials often suffer from a lack of any relevant evidence beyond the testimony of the alleged victim and the defendant. In other words, you’re right. In this case, this court found that extraneous bad acts were properly excluded. The court, however, explicitly said that in other cases, with different facts, 413 evidence - which only applies to sexual assault cases - would be admissible. Rape is different: Congress has made a rule, for example, that makes it easier for prosecutors to get convictions in sexual assault cases - a rule that only applies to sexual assault cases. And sexual assault is already a particularly hard charge to defend against. The Innocence Project doesn’t break its cases down by type of allegation. But if you look at the first page - [Exonerated by DNA](http://www.innocenceproject.org/cases-false-imprisonment/front-page#c10=published&b_start=0&c4=Exonerated+by+DNA) - you’ll find that all of them were charged with sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/220 "2015-09-07T18:51:49Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > But under 413 - sexual assault cases - those same acts _are_ admissible: > > In other words, you’re right. In this case, this court found that extraneous bad acts were properly excluded. The court, however, explicitly said that in other cases, with different facts, 413 evidence - which only applies to sexual assault cases - would be admissible. And…? What is your point now? How is that different from what I said? Court discretion to exclude evidence and use Rule 403 applies to _every_ case. FRE 413 does not _compel_ the prior acts to be admissible. The court weighs it for _each individual case_, depending on the facts of that specific case. Why do you need to go over things again and again? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=12)