# "Rape culture" and "date rape" debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203 "2015-08-28T19:13:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/261 "2015-09-16T16:38:48Z")
The dictionary definition isn’t really relevant. If we legalized rape, all of us would still call it rape. Back when it was legal to force your wife into sex, that was rape. Heck there are countries today where that’s legal, but we don’t say in those countries it’s not rape. We say in those countries some rapes are legal. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/262 "2015-09-16T16:49:40Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Along these same lines, I would be interested to know which of those two parties is among your closest friends, except that I’m pretty sure I don’t need you to tell me. The woman. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/263 "2015-09-16T16:53:48Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The woman. I assumed it was the man, as it seemed strange for you to say that deciding to take him to court over it happened to the woman. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/264 "2015-09-16T16:54:18Z")
And I altered the story somewhat. In reality, they were fucking with no problem at first, but he was struggling to have an orgasm and getting frustrated and she got tired and sore and wanted him to stop, but he didn’t, he kept going, trying to have an orgasm and getting increasingly harsh in his thrusting because he was frustrated. She got very unhappy and physically uncomfortable and pissed. He never came but finally rolled off. They had been lovers off and on for years. So, did it become rape once she told him to stop and he didn’t? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/265 "2015-09-16T16:56:08Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I assumed it was the man, as it seemed strange for you to say that deciding to take him to court over it happened to the woman. No, that was added. And the unvarnished truth of it I just finished posting.And no, she did not in any respect pursue him for any kind of sexual assault, but she felt kinda rapey. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/266 "2015-09-16T16:59:20Z")
Just a reminder that my purpose since my first post has been to understand how other people think about these matters. I appreciate the responses. All very interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/267 "2015-09-16T16:59:36Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And I altered the story somewhat. In reality, they were fucking with no problem at first, but he was struggling to have an orgasm and getting frustrated and she got tired and sore and wanted him to stop, but he didn’t, he kept going, trying to have an orgasm and getting increasingly harsh in his thrusting because he was frustrated. > > She got very unhappy and physically uncomfortable and pissed. He never came but finally rolled off. > > They had been lovers off and on for years. > > So, did it become rape once she told him to stop and he didn’t? Yes. Again, this is _completely clearcut_, still in the “wtf **Stoid**?!” realm. She said “do not have sex with me,” and he had sex with her anyway. That is rape, in _both_ the legal _and_ moral senses. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/268 "2015-09-16T17:00:56Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Just a reminder that my purpose since my first post has been to understand how other people think about these matters. I appreciate the responses. All very interesting. But it’s interesting that it’s interesting. How could it be interesting? How could there be any surprise, in 2015 in among the denizens of an online discussion board, that these could be considered anything other than clear-cut examples of rape? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/269 "2015-09-16T17:04:38Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And I altered the story somewhat. In reality, they were fucking with no problem at first, but he was struggling to have an orgasm and getting frustrated and she got tired and sore and wanted him to stop, but he didn’t, he kept going, trying to have an orgasm and getting increasingly harsh in his thrusting because he was frustrated. > > She got very unhappy and physically uncomfortable and pissed. He never came but finally rolled off. > > They had been lovers off and on for years. > > So, did it become rape once she told him to stop and he didn’t? At what alternative point – say you altered the story a little more – could it have become rape? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/270 "2015-09-16T18:19:28Z")
BTW **Stoid** ’s example is clearly rape, consent was withdrawn. As I mentioned and is also being discussed in the “Rape or not rape” thread, part of the problem is that OK, say we arrive at a situation in which we agreed she was raped but he is not a rapist. Then what is the redress available to her? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/271 "2015-09-16T20:44:09Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > But it’s interesting that it’s interesting. How could it be interesting? How could there be any surprise, in 2015 in among the denizens of an online discussion board, that these could be considered anything other than clear-cut examples of rape? It appears that you are astonished by the fact that not everyone is of precisely the same mind on these issues. In turn I find myself astonished by your astonishment. Funny how that works… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/272 "2015-09-16T21:13:03Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > At what alternative point – say you altered the story a little more – could it have become rape? I don’t have a ready answer for that. When I come to a conclusion I feel firm about, if I do come to such a conclusion, I will share it. And my lack of a firm answer is evidence itself of what is apparently my outlier’s perspective; I certainly don’t share the view that it is as cut and dried as others do, not only this but any number of other possible scenarios. Sometimes, absolutely. Other times, no, not at all. I do not share the view that we should treat women as delicate flowers, easily shattered by an unwelcome touch. If you’ll forgive the jargonisticness of it, I find that perspective to be one which in effect colludes with the patriarchy, feminism’s burqa. And please don’t take from that that I do not recognize the terrible psychic and often physical wounds that may come from sexual assault. I very much do, which is why it irritates me to see every possible permutation of unwelcome sexual behavior treated as essentially equivalent. I think that’s completely ludicrous, unjust, unreasonable, unhealthy and completely counterproductive to the (purported) goal of men and women treating each other as equals.(I have some serious issues with “sexual harassment” as well… sexual harassment is very real: it’s when your boss makes blowing him a condition of your employment, or male co-workers grope you and expect you to put up with it. It is not sexual harassment for men to hang Playboy calendars or tell dirty jokes where you can hear it; being obnoxious isn’t the same as sexual harassment.) There’s no doubt that mine is not the most popular view, but also no doubt that I am not the only woman who feels this way. By a long shot. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/273 "2015-09-16T21:19:45Z")
Here’s the tragic and frustrating truth: there is a great deal of legitimacy to the opposing voices of gender politics. But as with SO many similar things, both sides refuse to acknowledge it and prefer to mock and bash each other instead. As sick as I am of whiny feminist bullshit, I am crushed by the hostility and dismissiveness often shown by those who consider themselves activists for men. We’d all get so much farther down the road to happiness if we got over needing to “win” by demonizing the opposite side and instead started from a position that acknowledged some basic truths in both points of view. It’s depressing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/274 "2015-09-16T21:26:15Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Here’s the tragic and frustrating truth: there is a great deal of legitimacy to the opposing voices of gender politics. But as with SO many similar things, both sides refuse to acknowledge it and prefer to mock and bash each other instead. > > As sick as I am of whiny feminist bullshit, I am crushed by the hostility and dismissiveness often shown by those who consider themselves activists for men. > > We’d all get so much farther down the road to happiness if we got over needing to “win” by demonizing the opposite side and instead started from a position that acknowledged some basic truths in both points of view. > > It’s depressing. This is all fine, but I think one of those “basic truths” that must be acknowledged is that it is absolutely wrong, always, to do anything sexual to or with someone who has not consented, and that it is the responsibility of anyone who wants to do anything sexual to ensure that their partner has consented. It’s really not hard to do this, and it’s hard for me to understand why this idea encounters resistance. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/275 "2015-09-16T22:09:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > This is all fine, but I think one of those “basic truths” that must be acknowledged is that it is absolutely wrong, always, to do anything sexual to or with someone who has not consented, and that it is the responsibility of anyone who wants to do anything sexual to ensure that their partner has consented. > > It’s really not hard to do this, and it’s hard for me to understand why this idea encounters resistance. This isn’t how people have sex. The vast, vast majority of sex acts and sexual encounters are not prefaced with explicit consent gathering, relying instead on the continued participation of the other partner as sufficient demonstration, and quite a lot of people lead with an act such as touching or kissing when they feel that they have consent, and in the vast majority of cases, they are correct and the act is consented to, and desired. Hell, let me bring up one story from my past. My significant other does costume design work, and works odd hours to meet deadlines. Every work has its own unique technical challenges, and identifying and creating a unique solution to a novel problem is quite a rush, especially when sleep-deprived. The result of this is my partner is quite likely to be a bit het up and eager to celebrate in the early hours of the morning. On one particular occasion, I woke up into a sex act. My partner had not received specific instruction as to how I consented to sonmabulistic sex in general nor that particular act in specific. On the other hand, she’d lived with me for well over a decade and knew very well what I was and wasn’t cool with, even if it hadn’t been enumerated. The short version is that consent, being a human thing reliant on human interaction and human judgement, is complicated, and you can’t sum it up in soundbytes very effectively. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/276 "2015-09-16T22:25:05Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Here’s the tragic and frustrating truth: there is a great deal of legitimacy to the opposing voices of gender politics. But as with SO many similar things, both sides refuse to acknowledge it and prefer to mock and bash each other instead. > > As sick as I am of whiny feminist bullshit, I am crushed by the hostility and dismissiveness often shown by those who consider themselves activists for men. > > We’d all get so much farther down the road to happiness if we got over needing to “win” by demonizing the opposite side and instead started from a position that acknowledged some basic truths in both points of view. > > It’s depressing. I have to agree with this, and I’m glad you entered the discussion to add this perspective. I am a first wave feminist, as I assume you are, and I usually avoid the third wave issues because they do seem trivial to me compared to the things we had to deal with. But I do worry about the backlash from the antifeminist/MRA people I am seeing on the internet. In real life, I haven’t had to declare myself a feminist for years; but lately it seems necessary to do so in message board discussions and social media, _and_ when dealing with the generation just coming up today. I have said this in another thread, but these recent college rape cases are very concerning to me, for the reasons you have delineated here. I think I’m realizing that we do need to remain vigilant and to avoid over-correction in either direction. And unfortunately, sometimes that leads to butting heads with today’s feminists. I have personally experienced your hypothetical, on several occasions, so I get where you (and your friend) are coming from. I didn’t feel like it was rape, then or now, but then again I was always able to end the encounter by throwing the guy off me, or doing something that would cause him to stop (I won’t TMI here ;)). Maybe I would have felt differently if the guy was so aggressive and determined to continue that he physically overpowered me. Or if I didn’t know him well enough to know the limits of his aggressive tendencies. _Or_ if I was a college aged woman with the mindset formed in today’s environment. And yes, that is depressing. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/277 "2015-09-16T22:47:17Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > At what alternative point – say you altered the story a little more – could it have become rape? In the real world, isn’t there a difference between technical rape and feasibly prosecutable rape? Because I’d be very surprised if a DA would decide to proceed in that scenario. The alternative point would have to involve more evidence, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/278 "2015-09-16T23:23:27Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > This isn’t how people have sex. The vast, vast majority of sex acts and sexual encounters are not prefaced with explicit consent gathering, relying instead on the continued participation of the other partner as sufficient demonstration, and quite a lot of people lead with an act such as touching or kissing when they feel that they have consent, and in the vast majority of cases, they are correct and the act is consented to, and desired. I agree, and this doesn’t contradict my position. I understand that often consent can be deduced nonverbally. My problem is with the times in which is not – when one partner freezes up, is non-responsive, does not respond enthusiastically, etc., but still may or may not make an explicitly resisting move or verbal “no”. In such cases, it’s still the responsibility of the active partner to ensure that their partner has consented – and if they proceed without such consent, then they might be committing rape. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/279 "2015-09-16T23:35:15Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > It appears that you are astonished by the fact that not everyone is of precisely the same mind on these issues. > > In turn I find myself astonished by your astonishment. > > Funny how that works… **Stoid** , precision has nothing to do with it. It’s astonishing that anyone here would ask “So, did it become rape once she told him to stop and he didn’t?” **She told him to stop and he didn’t** , literally the two definitional elements of rape, and you asked whether it was rape or not. While literally typing those two definitional elements word for word as a description of the scenario you were describing. You don’t precisely share my point of view in the same way that the cats are not precisely reptiles. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/280 "2015-09-16T23:45:01Z")
**Camille** , are you saying you don’t find **Stoid’s** examples to be examples of rape either? Or did I misunderstand you? If so, (and **Stoid** of course I’d like to hear from you on this too if you’re up for it), what’s the concept of rape you’re working from such that the examples don’t fall under it? Or if you think it’s some kind of edge case or an unclear case, or something, what’s the concept of rape you are working from such that it’s an edge case or unclear case or something? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=15)