# "Rape culture" and "date rape" debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203 "2015-08-28T19:13:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/21 "2015-08-28T20:48:14Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > A set of beliefs and practices which, in aggregate, have the effect of establishing a status quo wherein the existence of some amount of sexual violence is expected and normalized, leading to an environment where more sexual assaults occur than would occur in the absence of such a culture. And then you can go on to fine tune such things as what’s the magnitude/significance of this last differential effect; what beliefs and practices are or are not, or can be but not necessarily always, contained in the set; is it a part of the dominant general culture or a localized/fringe phenomenon or is it less or more significant in the general vs. the particular (do we speak of “the” rape culture of of “a” rape culture or of rape cultureS); is it to be the presumption to be proven false, or the other way around, etc. ---
**Author:** ![TheSeaOtter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ed655f/32.png) [@TheSeaOtter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheSeaOtter)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/22 "2015-08-28T20:51:35Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > I am not sure the analogies here are good. Murder and theft are things people generally go to great lengths to avoid, whereas having sex is something people of either sex have been known to seek out for pleasure. People often voluntarily give things to other people, either as a gift or in exchange for something. When you take someone’s stuff without their consent, it’s theft. When you have sex with them without their consent, it’s rape. It seems like a reasonable enough analogy to me. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/23 "2015-08-28T20:53:08Z")
“I don’t know what the term means, therefore whatever it may describe, that thing does not exist.” ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/24 "2015-08-28T20:54:47Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I mean, the term “struggle snuggle” exists. People think it’s funny. I hadn’t heard that one before (I know “surprise sex,”) but I think that term is funny too. Along with jokes about any number of other heinous things. I’m not sure I’d necessarily use that example, given there are plenty of others. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/25 "2015-08-28T21:00:28Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > There’s also attitudes and behavior to consider as well. > > I used to be skeptical of the term “rape culture” until one day I sat down and thought of past occasions when someone made a rape joke in my presence, with numerous people laughing and one-upping and nobody challenging it at all (this was in the Army if it makes any difference). I mean, the term “struggle snuggle” exists. People think it’s funny. People put up [signs like this](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015/08/28/sexist-banners-old-dominion-point-practice-many-campuses) and pretend there’s no threatening undertone. What else can you call this but rape culture? But if the existence of rape jokes is enough to establish the existence of rape culture, then by extension we also live in a murder culture, a cancer culture, a pedophilia culture, a holocaust culture, and a necrophilia culture as well. As for the signs, all they prove is that those specific young men are assholes, and your article states that those assholes were immediately suspended. If we actually lived in a rape culture, surely no-one would care. Besides, you can find assholes holding nasty signs about anything. Are articles like [this](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2323883/Johnny-Milanos-chilling-photos-American-Nazis-annual-National-Socialist-Movement-convention-Atlanta.html) (NSFW) evidence that the U.S. is a “Nazi culture”? Or are there merely evidence that some Nazi assholes live in the U.S.? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/26 "2015-08-28T21:05:25Z")
And for cryin’ out loud of course date rape exists – like “statutory” rape, the qualifier just describes the particular circumstance of the event, but it is still legally (and morally) rape or, to use the modern penal term, sexual battery: sex without valid consent. In modern penal codes the crime is understood to be against the dignity and autonomy of the individual. Also, contrary to common panicmongering, no there is no epidemic of women crying rape because they later regret a bad decision made while mildly buzzed, nor does that flow necessarily from the effort to erradicate rape cultures where they exist. That’s nonsense. (ETA and yeah, “teh surprise buttsecks” has been a trite joke on the web since there has been a web…) ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/27 "2015-08-28T21:11:39Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > But if the existence of rape jokes is enough to establish the existence of rape culture, then by extension we also live in a murder culture, a cancer culture, a pedophilia culture, a holocaust culture, and a necrophilia culture as well. I don’t think anyone is saying the entire U.S. lives in a rape culture. They’re just saying that a rape culture exists in certain places in the US. From certain rap music to certain fraternities. It’s not “everywhere” but it’s out there. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/28 "2015-08-28T21:15:08Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Yes, but against this we have the following: > > 1. Rape carries long prison sentences. > 2. Even in prisons, among murderers and gangsters, rapists are universally despised. > 3. 24% of Americans actually favour the death penalty for rape ([Cite](http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/research/cornell-law-review/upload/Gross-2.pdf) - Scroll to page 1,464). > 4. Rapists are universally depicted in the media as being unambiguously evil. > > These would seem to indicate that we _don’t_ live in a rape culture. Perhaps one can be slightly more specific then… “date rape culture” may be a better term to use, as opposed to stranger rape which is treated much more seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/29 "2015-08-28T21:21:31Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I don’t think anyone is saying the entire U.S. lives in a rape culture. They’re just saying that a rape culture exists in certain places in the US. From certain rap music to certain fraternities. It’s not “everywhere” but it’s out there. Well, that would be a far more reasonable claim. However, if you google “America is a rape culture” or “We live in a rape culture” it becomes clear that there _are_ plenty of people who who do seem to think “rape culture” is everywhere. Also, your claim does seem to run counter to the definitions of rape culture provided by **Jimmy Chitwood** and **Skald** which indicates that, at the very least, there’s quite a bit of confusion about the term. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/30 "2015-08-28T21:35:48Z")
Rape culture is a pattern of actions whereby it is presumed that women’s sexuality is owned by other people–that other people have a right to a woman’s sexuality. Culture is complicated. We obviously don’t live in culture that simply says outright (through its laws or straightforwardly expressed norms) that women’s sexuality belongs to others. This is, instead, something we find _presumed_ by patterns of action in the culture. Take the example of [these signs](http://mic.com/articles/124331/these-disturbing-first-day-of-school-banners-reveal-fraternity-rape-culture-at-its-worst), recently in the news. (College fraternities hung out signs suggesting that fathers are sadly depositing their daughters into the care of fraternities when bringing them to college.) These signs presume that a woman’s sexuality is owned by her dad until she’s an adult, and presume that she gives up some or all ownership of her sexuality once entering into a “frat party” type of space. In paraphrase: “Drop the woman off here–and I hope she’s ready…” And if she’s not? The most obvious reading of this is that something called “a good time” is to happen to her, ready or not. At best, the signs are implying that either she will walk into the space or there’s something defective about her (which is what it means to say someone is “not ready”). All of this sends the message that her sexuality–the standards by which it is to be decided how and when she should have sex–are not fundamentally her own. That is exactly what rape culture is. It is not arguable that rape culture exists. These signs are a clear example. I can literally point at rape culture, you can physically see it with your actual eyes, by looking at these signs. This is of course just one manifestation of rape culture. It’s everywhere, and it’s insidious. This just happens to be the issue that came to my mind because I had a discussion with an MRA type a few days ago about it. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/31 "2015-08-28T21:37:16Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > No, **Jimmy Chitwood** gave **Jimmy Chitwood’s** definition. Is it authoritative? Is it what most people mean when they use the term? > > Yes, but against this we have the following: > > 1. Rape carries long prison sentences. > 2. Even in prisons, among murderers and gangsters, rapists are universally despised. > 3. 24% of Americans actually favour the death penalty for rape ([Cite](http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/research/cornell-law-review/upload/Gross-2.pdf) - Scroll to page 1,464). > 4. Rapists are universally depicted in the media as being unambiguously evil. > > These would seem to indicate that we _don’t_ live in a rape culture. The problem isn’t “people are totally a-ok with rape” the problem is “people have no idea the things they are doing are in fact rape”. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/32 "2015-08-28T21:38:00Z")
I wouldn’t be reluctant to go to the police if someone cleared out my bank account or physically threatened me. It would be hard to prove both of these things, but I don’t think my claim would be immediately viewed with suspicion. I wouldn’t have to worry about educated, respectable people calling me a lying whore. But I’d be very reluctant to report a sexual assault. Because hearing “lying whore” after being sexually violated would probably be enough to make me fling myself off a bridge. **Tithonus** , you want evidence that we live in a rape culture? Exhibit A–Bill Cosby. In a lot of people’s minds, because Bill Cosby didn’t tackle anyone in a dark alley, then what he did wasn’t rape and those women are just a buncha lying whores. In a healthier society, the number of accusers wouldn’t have had to be in the gazillions before the masses started believing them. ---
**Author:** ![DerekMichaels00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f14d63/32.png) [@DerekMichaels00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DerekMichaels00)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/33 "2015-08-28T21:40:01Z")
> [@WF\_Tomba](#): > > We can reasonably debate what behavior in an intoxicated person constitutes consent, but the idea that voluntary drunkenness itself constitutes consent to any and all sexual activity is just absurd. > > If you got drunk and passed out at a party, and woke up to find some guy putting his penis in your mouth, would you feel that you were responsible for what happened? Thats not the scenario I describe. I’m describing the scenario when a girl consents but then because she was drunk, accuses the guy of rape. You’re describing something unconsenual, which I do not condone. Also, what you described is pure deviance that carries a much bigger societal shame and stigma, due to it being homosexuality, than man on woman. Everyone feels sorry for a female rape victim; a male victim is “a bitch,” or “liked it.” ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/34 "2015-08-28T21:48:20Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > A set of beliefs and practices which, in aggregate, have the effect of establishing a status quo wherein the existence of some amount of sexual violence is expected and normalized, leading to an environment where more sexual assaults occur than would occur in the absence of such a culture. Doesn’t the very fact that rapes regularly occur establish a “status quo wherein the existence of some amount of sexual violence is expected and normalized?” If rapes occur, then by your definition there is a rape culture. Thus, every culture since the beginning of time is a rape culture, rendering the term a fairly useless rhetorical device for anyone seeking serious discussion on the issue of sexual violence. It is a discussion-ender; a declaration that rape is bad and that because rape occurs our society is bad and because our society is bad we are encouraging rape. Which, to **Tithonus** ’ point, is moronic. There are likely many more people actively advocating Nazism than those actively advocating rape. Yet, no one feels compelled to say we live in a “Nazi culture” to sleep better atop their moral perch. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/35 "2015-08-28T21:50:04Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Thats not the scenario I describe. You didn’t describe a scenario at all. You just said that if you get drunk, you can’t complain if someone fucks you. Which, incidentally, also cuts against your claim that there’s no such thing as “rape culture.” ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/36 "2015-08-28T21:50:25Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Rape culture is a pattern of actions whereby it is presumed that women’s sexuality is owned by other people–that other people have a right to a woman’s sexuality. [/QUOTE] So would it be fair to say that rape culture is synonymous with objectification? That they are one in the same? Or is there more to rape culture than that? > [@Frylock](#): > > Culture is complicated. We obviously don’t live in culture that simply says outright (through its laws or straightforwardly expressed norms) that women’s sexuality belongs to others. This is, instead, something we find _presumed_ by patterns of action in the culture. This makes “rape culture” seem nebulous to the point of being virtually unfalsifiable. If you are allowed to point at signs objectifying women as evidence of rape culture, but I’m _not_ allowed to point at the punishment the students received for hanging them as evidence _against_ the existence of rape culture (because, after all, rape culture isn’t expressed through laws or straightforwardly expressed norms) then it seems _impossible_ to prove, even theoretically, that rape culture doesn’t exist. Which makes the entire concept rather useless. > [@Frylock](#): > > It is not arguable that rape culture exists. These signs are a clear example. I can literally point at rape culture, you can physically see it with your actual eyes, by looking at these signs. But if these signs aren’t condoned by society (and the article you linked to proves definitively that they are _not_) then how are they an example of anything other than a bunch of young, stupid assholes acting like a bunch of young, stupid assholes? ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/37 "2015-08-28T22:04:33Z")
Statements about culture are always hard to prove or disprove, and the terms are hard to define. It is, to some extent, a matter of opinion. How many people in a given society must hold a certain attitude in order to declare that attitude “part of the culture”? But I think there is plenty of evidence to show that a disturbingly large number of people have attitudes that tend to excuse certain forms of rape. Regardless of how serious those frat boys were with their banners, college fraternities have a longstanding reputation for rape. And yet they are not seen as criminal gangs, but instead are allowed to operate openly on university campuses. That’s a pretty good example of rape tolerance right there. Universities would never allow frats to have houses on campus if they had a reputation for murder or arson. And then there’s the OP of this thread, which argued that it’s not rape if the victim willingly got drunk. I don’t know exactly how many people would agree with that position, but he’s at least promoting tolerance of rape by arguing it. So there’s another example. I am not going to insist that the term “rape culture” is more useful than other words we might use to describe the same phenomena. That’s really a matter of opinion. I do insist that when people use the term, they are generally referring to real phenomena. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/38 "2015-08-28T22:05:11Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > This makes “rape culture” seem nebulous to the point of being virtually unfalsifiable. If you are allowed to point at signs objectifying women as evidence of rape culture, but I’m _not_ allowed to point at the punishment the students received for hanging them as evidence _against_ the existence of rape culture (because, after all, rape culture isn’t expressed through laws or straightforwardly expressed norms) then it seems _impossible_ to prove, even theoretically, that rape culture doesn’t exist. Which makes the entire concept rather useless. Not so. I would state your example as proof that there exists a rape culture _within the Greek community, and within certain fraternities in specific_. The fact that the fratboys though the signs were funny, or that they should display them to outsiders proves that. The fact that they are getting punished for doing so is a sign that the **greater society** is at least making an effort to cease having a rape culture. The fact that there are people arguing that we don’t have one proves that we have quite a ways to go with that. There are many layers of culture and sub-culture in any society. Blanket statements don’t really apply in many instances. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/39 "2015-08-28T22:13:55Z")
It seems to me that for some people, there’s this wall between “rape” and “having sex with someone when they don’t want to or can’t say no”. Maybe the popular vision of the crime as taking place between a woman and a stranger in some dark alley is so predominant, they can’t imagine any other circumstance as being similar. ---
**Author:** ![WF\_Tomba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/d9b06d/32.png) [@WF\_Tomba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WF_Tomba)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/40 "2015-08-28T22:34:05Z")
> [@DerekMichaels00](#): > > Thats not the scenario I describe. I’m describing the scenario when a girl consents but then because she was drunk, accuses the guy of rape. You’re describing something unconsenual, which I do not condone. I don’t think that’s what you originally said, but thank you for acknowledging that non-consensual sex is rape. > [@](#): > > Also, what you described is pure deviance that carries a much bigger societal shame and stigma, due to it being homosexuality, than man on woman. It’s a clear-cut case of sexual assault even if everyone involved is gayer than Liberace. > [@](#): > > Everyone feels sorry for a female rape victim; a male victim is “a bitch,” or “liked it.” Everyone? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=3)