# "Rape culture" and "date rape" debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203 "2015-08-28T19:13:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/41 "2015-08-28T22:45:53Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Doesn’t the very fact that rapes regularly occur establish a “status quo wherein the existence of some amount of sexual violence is expected and normalized?” No, for obvious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/42 "2015-08-28T22:49:42Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > To be clear, I’m not saying **Jimmy Chitwood** is lying. I’m not even saying he’s wrong. I just need more than his say so before I accept his definition as a workable one for the purposes of a debate. I wouldn’t expect less from anybody else, and I wouldn’t expect anyone else to give me a free pass on defining such a controversial term either. Why, it’s almost like you only wanted to say it doesn’t exist, and didn’t actually want to find out anything about it! I’m citing my own authority. You said there’s no definition. I gave you one. I take it that you’re conceding that rape culture as I’ve defined it exists, but that, since there’s been no showing that my definition is authoritative, you will not concede that “rape culture” as is somehow _otherwise_ commonly understood (even though _you don’t know a definition for it_) exists? ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/43 "2015-08-28T23:16:33Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Why, it’s almost like you only wanted to say it doesn’t exist, and didn’t actually want to find out anything about it! Um, no…it’s actually nothing like that whatsoever, and I’m baffled as to how you managed to get that from what I wrote. > [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > I’m citing my own authority. And your authority would be…what, exactly? Are you a sociologist? A social psychologist? An anthropologist? Have you conducted any research on the matter? Published any papers? _Anything?_ > [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > You said there’s no definition. I gave you one. I take it that you’re conceding that rape culture as I’ve defined it exists, but that, since there’s been no showing that my definition is authoritative, you will not concede that “rape culture” as is somehow _otherwise_ commonly understood (even though _you don’t know a definition for it_) exists? You did give me a definition, true. But since you didn’t reference any authoritative sources for it, I’ve no idea if it’s a _good_ definition, or even a popular one. As far as I can tell, you’re speaking only for yourself. In which case, I can only say (at the risk of disrespecting your authoritah!) “Who cares?” All I can “concede” right now is that you believe what you say, but that doesn’t really help me very much, does it? I’m not asking for much. Just some sort of evidence to show that your definition of rape culture is predominant, or at least vaguely popular. If you can provide that evidence, I’ll happily debate your definition. Otherwise, we’ll have to go with _my_ definition of rape culture which is _“Anything **Jimmy Chitwood** says or does from now until the end of time”_ which, as far as I can tell, is every bit as authoritative as yours currently is. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/44 "2015-08-28T23:24:38Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Okay, that’s a start. But do you have an authoritative cite for this definition? Here is a 400 page book for you since you are interested: > **[Transforming a Rape Culture: Buchwald, Emilie, Fletcher, Pamela, Roth, Martha:...](https://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Rape-Culture-Emilie-Buchwald/dp/1571312692)** > > Transforming a Rape Culture \[Buchwald, Emilie, Fletcher, Pamela, Roth, Martha\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Transforming a Rape Culture Its ten years old, so some of it is a little dated by now, but at the time it was published, it was pretty much the definitive book on the idea of “rape culture” and what to do about it. (Actually, this EDITION is ten years old, the book itself was first published in 1993…this isn’t a new term or a new idea.) ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/45 "2015-08-28T23:33:11Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Um, no…it’s actually nothing like that whatsoever, and I’m baffled as to how you managed to get that from what I wrote. It was through my brain via the eyes. > [@](#): > > And your authority would be…what, exactly? Are you a sociologist? A social psychologist? An anthropologist? Have you conducted any research on the matter? Published any papers? _Anything?_ As it happens, I’m an expert in the field of sexual and domestic violence law, and yes, and yes. Ever ask a question you shouldn’t have? Not that this would need to be the case, mind you; if I tell someone there’s no definition for a fucking apple, where o where can I find a definition of what this magical thing called an apple might be, and they do me a solid and tell me what a fucking apple is, I don’t need to examine their bona fides, because regardless, my quibble has been addressed. In other words, what’s your quibble now? Turns out you don’t want to talk about how to define rape culture. What do you want to talk about, other than yourself talking? ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/46 "2015-08-28T23:47:34Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > As it happens, I’m an expert in the field of sexual and domestic violence law, and yes, and yes. Well you could have fucking said so! That would have been enough. That was literally ALL you needed to do. Jesus Christ… Fine, if you’re an expert in the field of sexual and domestic violence law and not just some fucking schlub on the internet then I’ll happily accept your definition of rape culture as authoritative. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/47 "2015-08-28T23:52:20Z")
So about that debate, then. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/48 "2015-08-28T23:59:47Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > In other words, what’s your quibble now? Turns out you don’t want to talk about how to define rape culture. What do you want to talk about, other than yourself talking? Here’s my first question: If rape culture is _“A set of beliefs and practices which, in aggregate, have the effect of establishing a status quo wherein the existence of some amount of sexual violence is expected and normalized, leading to an environment where more sexual assaults occur than would occur in the absence of such a culture.”_ then how are the people within that culture able to override or ignore the _overwhelmingly large and powerful_ set of beliefs and practises which, in aggregate, have the effect of establishing that rapists are the scum of the Earth? These beliefs and practises include (but are not limited to) harsh prison sentences for rapists and universally negative portrayals of rapists in all forms of popular media. After all, if the set of beliefs and practises which encompass rape culture were not sufficient to override the set of beliefs and practises which condemn rape, they wouldn’t lead to an environment where more sexual assaults occur than would otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/49 "2015-08-29T01:00:57Z")
I do accept **Jimmy Chitwood** ’s definition but to be complete: “Official” cite [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture) > [@](#): > > In feminist theory, rape culture is a setting in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.[1][2] > \ > Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm caused by some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these.[4] The notion of rape culture has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups, including prison rape, and in conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire societies have been alleged to be rape cultures.[3][5][6][7][8] > There is evidence to suggest that rape culture is correlated with other social factors and behaviors. Rape myths, victim blaming, and trivialization of rape have been found to be positively correlated with racism, sexism, homophobia, ageism, classism, religious intolerance, and other forms of discrimination.[9][10] I myself am not certain that rape culture is only studied by feminists, but that is Wikipedia for you. In my experience, rape culture exists in the United States and Western Europe. I have not lived elsewhere. From what I observe, it is pervasive in most cultures across the globe. I say “most” only because there may be one where it doesn’t exist, but I am not aware of one. I would be happy to learn of it. I should mention, as I’ve done elsewhere on the board, that I put in thousands of hours as a rape counselor. As to the “date rape”, I’m not sure why providing personal data points somehow allows us to participate in the thread but it seems to. my sister was sexually assaulted by a football player in college. No, she was not drinking. She was just smaller than he was. No, nothing was done. Is the OP participating in the thread or just watching? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/50 "2015-08-29T01:15:06Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > Is the OP participating in the thread or just watching? Totally out of his depth and just watching helplessly is my guess. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/51 "2015-08-29T01:21:56Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > ([Cite](http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/research/cornell-law-review/upload/Gross-2.pdf) - Scroll to page 1,464). No, u. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/52 "2015-08-29T01:38:44Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > No, u. Sorry. I should have been clearer. The cite is an excerpt from a much larger text and the info in my link actually _starts_ on page 1448 of that text. You actually only need to scroll down 17 pages. Also, it’s page 1465. My bad! ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/53 "2015-08-29T01:44:03Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Sorry. I should have been clearer. The cite is an excerpt from a much larger text and the info in my link actually _starts_ on page 1448 of that text. You actually only need to scroll down 17 pages. Also, it’s page 1465. My bad! That’s it. You’re done. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/54 "2015-08-29T03:56:49Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Sorry. I should have been clearer. The cite is an excerpt from a much larger text and the info in my link actually _starts_ on page 1448 of that text. You actually only need to scroll down 17 pages. Also, it’s page 1465. My bad! Whoosh? Followed by a clarification to the whoosh? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/55 "2015-08-29T04:18:49Z")
I’m someone who doesn’t think “rape culture” is quite the best name for the phenomenon–at least in the context of “we live in a rape culture.” But the underlying concept exists. (I’d rather argue that our culture tolerates certain pro-rape subcultures.) Just like I’m not a fan of “\_\_\_\_\_ privilege,” even though I regularly experience the concept it espouses. Hell, it’s the reason why the OP has the ability to say what he says. I just think it’s stupid to call it a privilege, because I connect that word with something that is earned. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/56 "2015-08-29T04:50:45Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I wouldn’t be reluctant to go to the police if someone cleared out my bank account or physically threatened me. It would be hard to prove both of these things, but I don’t think my claim would be immediately viewed with suspicion. I wouldn’t have to worry about educated, respectable people calling me a lying whore. > > But I’d be very reluctant to report a sexual assault. Because hearing “lying whore” after being sexually violated would probably be enough to make me fling myself off a bridge. :rolleyes: Oh yes it would. Police tend to view sexual crimes much more seriously then crimes against property and more seriously generally then physical threats or even some actual violence. I have seen police officers say “street fight and the loser is here complaining” and directly tell victims of burglary that they should have been more careful and unless they get lucky, they can forget about ever getting anything back, “its probably already sold”. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/57 "2015-08-29T05:01:23Z")
Yes, there is a rape culture but their is also an anti-rape culture. Meaning good, decent people actively working to stop it. You find this first in changing attitudes (when did you last see a movie where rape was depicted as good?). Second, in teaching women how to defend themselves from attackers. And third, by pushing for tougher laws against it. Now a big problem in our area are the rape kits. Because of budget shortfalls many linger to the point of being unusable because it takes $1500 to process such a kit so police only process the ones where they have the best chance of finding the assailant. Some women have gone ahead and paid for the processing themselves. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/58 "2015-08-29T05:49:45Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > > Oh yes it would. Police tend to view sexual crimes much more seriously then crimes against property and more seriously generally then physical threats or even some actual violence. I have seen police officers say “street fight and the loser is here complaining” and directly tell victims of burglary that they should have been more careful and unless they get lucky, they can forget about ever getting anything back, “its probably already sold”. You also live in another country than the one we are generally discussing. I’m sure **monstro** appreciates the warning not to visit anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/59 "2015-08-29T06:19:33Z")
> [@ddsun](#): > > Whoosh? Followed by a clarification to the whoosh? :dubious: Not a whoosh, just some sloppy citing on my part. The link I provided for the statement “24% of Americans favour the death penalty for rapists” was a 28 page excerpt from what appears to be a much, much longer publication. Page 1 of the excerpt is actually page 1,448 of the longer publication. The excerpt is also a PDF, so I couldn’t copy/paste from it. Instead, I instructed people to “scroll down to page 1464” so they could see the relevant line for themselves. Kayaker assumed (perfectly reasonably, given what I’d actually written) that I was asking people to scroll through nearly 1,500 pages of text. Instead, since page 1 of the excerpt is page 1,448 of the greater publication, I was only asking people to scroll through 17 pages. Also, I made a typo. It’s page 1,465 (i.e. the 17th page of the excerpt), not page 1,464. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2015, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/60 "2015-08-29T07:34:47Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > No, for obvious reasons. If the status quo (state of affairs) is that rapes occur, then rapes are to be expected and are normalized to the society. If there was a period where no rapes occurred, the the normal state of affairs is that no rapes occur. To suggest that in a society where rapes have always occurred that expectations of rape are not normalized, you have to provide evidence that one could normally expect no rapes. Which, of course, is not reflective of reality. Rapes have always occurred, as a normalized stain on our society. Your definition is vague and useless. Bogged down in errant semantics, you can use the term “rape culture” in any way you see fit without acknowledging that, by your definition, every culture is a rape culture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=4)