# "Rape culture" and "date rape" debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203 "2015-08-28T19:13:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/121 "2015-08-31T10:12:20Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > Still looking having trouble with a definition for “Rape Culture?” How about a culture where[a game called “Tournament of Rapists” is not considered totally inappropriate](http://jessicalprice.tumblr.com/post/127951942358/games-sure-are-classy)? In order to have an opinion on appropriateness, one must first have heard of the thing. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/122 "2015-08-31T13:01:44Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Suppose somebody lies about getting raped, gets caught, and gets prosecuted for it. does that discourage real accusations? If the (false) accuser wasn’t attacked for his/her sexual history, supposed promiscuity, and the like, and the accusations were proven to be lies beyond reasonable doubt, then probably not. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/123 "2015-08-31T13:20:32Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > It’s the nature of the beast. Many such prosecutions are ‘he said, she said’ and because of this it’s almost certain that some rapes will fall through the net. The only way to prevent this would be to always believe the alleged victim. That would certainly convict all the rapists but equally certainly condemn some innocent men to prison. I’m sure you wouldn’t advocate this. No, I wouldn’t. Which is why, in the post you’re responding to, I said that what I’m saying is not simply that rapes aren’t being prosecuted. > [@](#): > > Oh, and as someone said above, if you want to see what a genuine rape culture looks like just check out the areas controlled by ISIS. The US doesn’t even come close to justifying such a tag. Just the opposite, in fact, with the inexorable movement over my lifetime to treat rape in all areas as the serious and grievous crime that it is, the acknowledgement of marital rape being one notable example. Now, apparently, “rape culture” is back to being something with a known definition; it’s just that the ones we live in don’t fit it. I’m having trouble keeping up with you guys - is there a definition of the phrase or not? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/124 "2015-08-31T14:41:11Z")
> [@Alkash](#): > > When reading stories like the one in Rolling Stones, or that hoax from Columbia U, or the Lacrosse case, or the “Hands up, don’t shoot” hoax, or the “he could’ve been my son” idiocy, or Tawana Brawley fraud, you always have to assume that’s it’s all lies. Every word of it. That’s not to say such cases cannot occur (after all, theoretically, anything is possible), but the initial assumption should always be that’s it all lies. Horseshit. Confirmation bias is a demanding mistress, but it ought not run one’s life. ---
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/125 "2015-08-31T15:31:03Z")
‘Rape culture’ is, of course, a lie. It was made famous due to Jackie Coakley’s silly UVA claims , which were proven to be lies… Feminists and women’s groups love to lie. That’s one reason they made up ‘date rape.’ They weren’t getting enough traditional rapes to back up their man hating lies so they moved the goal posts. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/126 "2015-08-31T16:12:34Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > Now, apparently, “rape culture” is back to being something with a known definition; it’s just that the ones we live in don’t fit it. I’m having trouble keeping up with you guys - is there a definition of the phrase or not? Are you familiar with the \Motte and Bailey\ argumentation pattern? In short, the idea is that one pattern to make a disingenuous argument is to make a claim which is reasonable (or not obviously unreasonable), but which doesn’t make any useful predictions or call for any action. Then, once people have accepted that, you substitute out the actual claim for another, much stronger claim, and argue that people have accepted it because they’ve accepted the other claim of the same name. When people shout down your unreasonable stronger claim, you claim that you were making the weak, reasonable claim all along. “Rape culture just means there’s some rape in a culture.” is a particularly weak motte, because we can point out that it’s horrifyingly inconsistently applied. The bailey, of course, is the pure emotive force of calling something a rape anything. Everyone’s against rape; if reasonable people agree that we live in a culture with lots of unchecked rape in it, then drastic action should be taken. But ‘lots of’ has nothing to do with the actual defensible, bailey definition proposed earlier of “any non-zero amount”. So, it’s not that the term is meaningless. It’s that it swaps between being meaningless and offensively wrong depending on the power of the claimant in a social situation. If literally every culture is rape culture, then the fact that we’re in a rape culture can suggest no course of actions or improved outcomes. It’s not a thing that we should be outraged about, any more than we should be outraged at every individual crime and injustice, because one is the count necessary to meet the critera. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/127 "2015-08-31T16:19:55Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > “Rape culture just means there’s some rape in a culture.” is a particularly weak motte, because we can point out that it’s horrifyingly inconsistently applied. Are you familiar with the fact that nobody has advanced anything like this idea? People are saying that rape culture is culture that promotes rape. It is only the motley crew of people opposing the idea of rape culture who are consistently demanding that what this must mean is that all cultures that have any rape in them are rape cultures by virtue of the fact that at least one rape occurs. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/128 "2015-08-31T16:36:00Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I told the dorm party story on another website, and there was one woman who replied, “As a survivor of a kidnapping and gang rape, the idea that a woman would offer herself for sexual abuse completely boggles my mind.” > > I agree. > > This woman had many of the hallmarks of sexual abuse; whether she was or not, I don’t know but it wouldn’t surprise me. > > As for a true “rape culture”, what about Pitcairn Island? > > [Trouble in Paradise | Vanity Fair](http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2008/01/pitcairn200801) I guess my wording was not specific, but I was being facetious when I wrote about her being “terrible” she wasn’t, nor does she really need to be defined by who she keeps company with. And thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/129 "2015-08-31T16:52:53Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Many people are okay with rape – many people are okay with raping intoxicated people; with date-rape; with spousal-rape; with prison rape; with the rape of prostitutes; with raping someone who has not clearly assented to sex; and many other things. > > In other words, many people don’t think of these things (some or all) as actual rape, and the only kind of rape that they are not okay with is stranger-jumping-out-of-an-alley rape. This. Exactly why we live in a Rape culture. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/130 "2015-08-31T17:30:24Z")
Rape Culture is all about normalizing a behavior that’s all about power and control over another human being. The Tailhook Scandal of the early nineties was shocking, but there were no convictions… and it looks like we haven’t learned anything in 20 years. The Rape culture continues > **[Revisiting the Military’s Tailhook Scandal (Published 2013)](https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/booming/revisiting-the-militarys-tailhook-scandal-video.html?_r=0)** > > This Retro Report video explores how much, and how little, has changed since the sexual assaults at a 1991 convention of naval aviators. The time of Slavery was a time of Rape Culture and we still feel it’s effects. [https://polsci307.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/yesterdays-slavery-todays-rape-culture/](https://polsci307.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/yesterdays-slavery-todays-rape-culture/) ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/131 "2015-08-31T17:48:21Z")
This site has a pretty comprehensive set of definitions. > **[What is Rape Culture? - Salal Sexual Violence Support Centre](https://www.wavaw.ca/what-is-rape-culture/)** > > Rape culture is a term that was coined by feminists in the United States in the 1970s. It was designed to show the ways in which society blamed victims of sexual assault and normalized sexual violence. Many feminists have provided great definitions... Boiling it all down, what is the issue with “rape culture”? I think it is all down to this: while people can quibble with definitions, what seperates those who find “rape culture” a useful concept from those who don’t is, basically, their impression of human nature. Those who find the term “rape culture” useful tend to be those who think human nature is quite malleable. The thesis is that, if one could change the culture, one could change people’s actions: that is, if their prescriptions for cultural change are followed, we could in effect “teach people not to rape” (rather than “teaching people how not to get raped”), so the incidence of rape would go down radically. Those who find the term “rape culture” not useful tend to be those who think that human nature is not so malleable. That one could (say) totally eliminate joking references to rape, reform policing and the legal system, and make all the other cultural and institutional adjustments the first group is suggesting or demanding, and people would still rape, and the frequency will not decrease radically - that rapist rape, not because they are badly educated by culture, but because they are bad people for a whole host of reasons that go far beyond the superficialities of culture. From the latter POV, if you want to stop rapes, changing the _cosmetic_ aspects of culture will not be enough, or even necessarily particularly helpful. The evidence is equivocal. There is no doubt that some places are far safer, more “rape free”, than others - this indicates that human nature is, indeed, pretty malleable. Those places also tend to be places where Feminism (including ‘rape culture’ analysis) is better established. Correlation isn’t causation though - it could well be that the same factors (for example, a relatively wealthy, educated population) support both a relatively rape-free environment, _and_ one receptive to such theories. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/132 "2015-08-31T17:52:48Z")
I am not sure what the allegation is here. Are we (1) asking whether a rape culture exists within the US? Or are we (2) asking whether the culture of the US as a whole \*is \*a rape culture? For reference: “Culture” as defined by the Cambridge Online Dictionary is > [@](#): > > **culture** > the way of ​life, ​especially the ​general ​customs and ​beliefs, of a ​particular ​group of ​people at a ​particular ​time If you want to make a case for (2) you would have to show that rape is in some way part of the general ​customs and ​beliefs of American society as a whole. How could you do that? You could point to polls wherein a significant part of the population displays support or at least tolerance for some form of rape. You could find elected representatives, who publicly show tolerance for some form of rape and still get reelected. Basically anything that shows that rape is not only acceptable to a small minority but to a significant part of the population. If cou cannot do that, you’d better go with (1). To show this, you would only have to make a case demonstrating that rape is acceptable in certain circles (fraternities for example). That should be easier. But the more accurate term for this might be “rape subculture”. > [@](#): > > **subculture** > the way of ​life, ​customs, and ​ideas of a ​particular ​group of ​people within a ​society that are different from the ​rest of that ​society ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/133 "2015-08-31T17:56:22Z")
If someone were to say that science fiction culture exists in the United States, suddenly all the opacity and befuddling contradictions that are apparently plaguing this conversation would magically disappear, and every single person would know exactly what was being referred to, at least in general terms. Nobody would say “wait are you saying the whole country _is_ science fiction culture? If there’s one science fiction movie does that mean everybody is part of science fiction culture?”. Everyone would say oh, right, science fiction culture. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/134 "2015-08-31T18:01:16Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > If someone were to say that science fiction culture exists in the United States, suddenly all the opacity and befuddling contradictions that are apparently plaguing this conversation would magically disappear, and every single person would know exactly what was being referred to, at least in general terms. > > Nobody would say “wait are you saying the whole country _is_ science fiction culture? If there’s one science fiction movie does that mean everybody is part of science fiction culture?”. Everyone would say oh, right, science fiction culture. You are overestimating me Jimmy. If you told me “We have a science fiction culture in the US”, I would respectfully ask you what the hell you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/135 "2015-08-31T18:03:47Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > If someone were to say that science fiction culture exists in the United States, suddenly all the opacity and befuddling contradictions that are apparently plaguing this conversation would magically disappear, and every single person would know exactly what was being referred to, at least in general terms. > > Nobody would say “wait are you saying the whole country _is_ science fiction culture? If there’s one science fiction movie does that mean everybody is part of science fiction culture?”. Everyone would say oh, right, science fiction culture. That’s not a good analogy though. “Science fiction culture” refers to a specific fandom. Most people have nothing to do with it. “Rape culture” usually refers to aspects of culture at large - such as our legal system - that has the tendency to (arguably) encourage the normalization of sexual violence - for perpetrators, victims, and bystanders alike. From the link above, definition 1: > [@](#): > > complex set of beliefs that encourage male sexual aggression and supports violence against women. It is a society where violence is seen as sexy and sexuality as violent. In a rape culture, women perceive a continuum of threatened violence that ranges from sexual remarks to sexual touching to rape itself. A rape culture condones physical and emotional terrorism against women as the norm . . . In a rape culture both men and women assume that sexual violence is a fact of life, inevitable . . . However . . . much of what we accept as inevitable is in fact the expression of values and attitudes that can change. Definition 2: > [@](#): > > Rape culture includes jokes, TV, music, advertising, legal jargon, laws, words and imagery, that make violence against women and sexual coercion seem so normal that people believe that rape is inevitable. Rather than viewing the culture of rape as a problem to change, people in a rape culture think about the persistence of rape as “just the way things are.” As I said above, I don’t think arguing about the definition is all that useful - I think it is more fruitful to argue about whether the concept of a “rape culture” is a useful one or not. But still, I don’t think analogizing it to a specific and discrete subculture is either true or useful. It is clear the theorists who use the concept mean something larger than that - that it is something inherent in society as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/136 "2015-08-31T18:05:09Z")
> [@Hiker](#): > > You are overestimating me Jimmy. If you told me “We have a science fiction culture in the US”, I would respectfully ask you what the hell you are talking about. Try “sports culture,” then. Is sports a huge part of American culture? Clearly. Does this mean that everyone in America is into sports? Hardly. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/137 "2015-08-31T18:16:30Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > That’s not a good analogy though. “Science fiction culture” refers to a specific fandom. Most people have nothing to do with it. Well, sure, there’s a big difference there. What I’m thinking about is a lot more fundamental than that kind of concern, though. This is largely a conversation where one side is saying, essentially, that the words rape and culture, when you put them together, connote zero information. They’re suggesting that their best guess about what we’re talking about is that, if one rape occurs, you live in a rape culture. We’re parsing the idea that there is such a thing as “culture,” basically! From your perspective, there’s a better angle to take on the whole discussion, sure, but then, you’ve gotten beyond the point where you question whether the words being directed at you have any meaning at all. I agree with you that there are more productive ways to look at this, and when it all comes down to it it’s just a subjective question about how important you think it is or how mindful you are of the fact that trace amounts of sexual exploitation are present in our drinking water, but you can’t have that conversation until you do the “ok, science fiction culture, what about it” part. Otherwise it’s just “but what does this have to do with the idea that everything is science fiction?!” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/138 "2015-08-31T18:16:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Try “sports culture,” then. Is sports a huge part of American culture? Clearly. Does this mean that everyone in America is into sports? Hardly. Better, but I think it still misses the mark as an analogy. “Rape culture” simply isn’t about a subculture pursuit that some are into and some are not. It is a description of the larger society as a whole - it is about institutions such as the courts, the police, etc. as much as it is about nasty campus jokes. As is said here, the idea is that it has permiated every aspect of our culture, so much so that people have trouble even seeing it: > [@](#): > > But here’s the thing. If, as Emilie Buchwald suggests, the normalization of sexualized violence has “saturated every corner of our culture so thoroughly that people can’t easily wrap their heads around what rape culture actually is,” then we need to take care not to let ourselves or the people around us become desensitized. > **[Rape Culture is Real—And Yes, We’ve Had Enough - Salal Sexual Violence...](https://www.wavaw.ca/rape-culture-is-real-and-yes-weve-had-enough/)** > > Rape Culture is Real—And Yes, We’ve Had Enough In 2012 a group calling itself Vancouver MRA (Men’s Rights Activists) plastered our fair city with hundreds of posters. Oh, the bottomless, slimy layers of messed up.  Where to begin? Well,... Ultimately, it is “about” the claim that men can in effect be socialized not to rape, if only these institutions and cultural aspects could be reformed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/139 "2015-08-31T18:52:00Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Better, but I think it still misses the mark as an analogy. > > “Rape culture” simply isn’t about a subculture pursuit that some are into and some are not. It is a description of the larger society as a whole - it is about institutions such as the courts, the police, etc. as much as it is about nasty campus jokes. > > As is said here, the idea is that it has permiated every aspect of our culture, so much so that people have trouble even seeing it: Actually, I think the sports metaphor is pretty solid. It’s something that’s widely presumed that most people are into - nobody thinks twice of asking a complete stranger what they thought of the game last night, for example, while most people wouldn’t turn to a stranger on the bus and ask, “Did you read the new Spider-Man comic?” Sports affects the way we talk, providing a whole host of idioms that pepper most people’s everyday speech. In its more toxic forms, it even affects legal and political institutions, from cities in bankruptcy being extorted to build new stadiums to prevent teams from leaving, to sports celebrities being given more lenient sentencing for breaking the law. (An area where sports culture and rape culture often overlaps) ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/140 "2015-08-31T19:24:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Try “sports culture,” then. Is sports a huge part of American culture? Clearly. Does this mean that everyone in America is into sports? Hardly. To me the term “sports culture” would indicate that at least a significant portion of the population are into sports - either actively or as spectators. It would not be hard to demonstrate that in that sense the US are a “sports culture”. The huge attention that sports events attract is quite obvious. I am not sure how you want to transfer that to rape though. I do not deny that rape is a problem and that it makes a lot of sense to look for ways to prevent it. Nor do I deny that there are still fellows who downplay the gravity of such a crime when they feel that the can somehow put part of the blame to the victim. The question is: Is there any evidence that this is a socially acceptable attitude in the US today? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=8)