# "Rape culture" and "date rape" debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203 "2015-08-28T19:13:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/161 "2015-09-01T19:34:38Z")
A person calling out feminism as wingnuts just don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/162 "2015-09-01T19:36:09Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Er, absolutely nothing on that page addresses any of the criticisms made in this thread. Feminism remains a rape culture per that page’s definition. You can’t not have a culture that’s a rape culture. Hell, per that page, several effective anti-rape methods are part of rape culture. > > When come back, bring metrics for what make a culture a rape culture versus not, and what makes a culture a rape culture vs., for example, a rape culture culture. I don’t think you read the blog. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/163 "2015-09-01T20:01:12Z")
I kinda’ sit in the middle on this issue but… > [@even\_sven](#): > > If a whole lot of women are saying over and over and over again that they are sick of rape being a part of their daily life, I suspect they probably know a thing or two about it. …really? Lots of women have rape as part of their daily life? If that’s true then I’ll agree we have a culture of rape. Garrison Keillor once told a story that involved the people in Lake Wobegone having an argument. Something that he said that stuck with me: what do you do when both sides are absolutely right? On the one side women see some men get away with rape for lake of evidence or apathy, like the Steubenville case. This can lead to women being frustrated and/or scared and is extremely emotional. On the other side men see cases where other men get wrongly accused of rape and serve jail time. That’s also scary. It becomes further muddled because sex is such a powerful motivator. Both sides are right and it’s a tough topic to come up with a solution. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/164 "2015-09-01T20:27:58Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > I don’t think you read the blog. I don’t think you read my post. OK, that’s not literally true. I think that you read my post in that you looked at the pattern of letters, formed them into words, and considered them, but apparently one heck of an ideological filter got to them in preprocessing if what you got out of it was that all feminists are wingnuts. And since the linked blog article gave no numbers, my point stands. We had another (admittedly much shorter) list in this very thread, but single emotive examples, either of rape being over- or under-prosecuted, prove nothing substantial over a population of a third of a billion. The link doesn’t state why its emotive examples mean we are in a rape culture and **LinusK** ’s don’t also mean that we’re in an Overreact To Claims about Rape Culture culture, and also don’t even try to pretend that there are even soft, amorphous targets that a culture could hit to officially be or not be a rape culture. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/165 "2015-09-01T20:35:21Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > I don’t think you read my post. > > OK, that’s not literally true. I think that you read my post in that you looked at the pattern of letters, formed them into words, and considered them, but apparently one heck of an ideological filter got to them in preprocessing if what you got out of it was that all feminists are wingnuts. > > And since the linked blog article gave no numbers, my point stands. We had another (admittedly much shorter) list in this very thread, but single emotive examples, either of rape being over- or under-prosecuted, prove nothing substantial over a population of a third of a billion. The link doesn’t state why its emotive examples mean we are in a rape culture and **LinusK** ’s don’t also mean that we’re in an Overreact To Claims about Rape Culture culture, and also don’t even try to pretend that there are even soft, amorphous targets that a culture could hit to officially be or not be a rape culture. Indeed the blog did give some stats, if you were willing to click the links. Apparently that wasn’t something you cared to do. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/166 "2015-09-01T20:46:51Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I kinda’ sit in the middle on this issue but… > > …really? Lots of women have rape as part of their daily life? If that’s true then I’ll agree we have a culture of rape. > > Garrison Keillor once told a story that involved the people in Lake Wobegone having an argument. Something that he said that stuck with me: what do you do when both sides are absolutely right? > > On the one side women see some men get away with rape for lake of evidence or apathy, like the Steubenville case. This can lead to women being frustrated and/or scared and is extremely emotional. On the other side men see cases where other men get wrongly accused of rape and serve jail time. That’s also scary. It becomes further muddled because sex is such a powerful motivator. > > Both sides are right and it’s a tough topic to come up with a solution. Really… have a look at this [Shakesville: Feminism 101](http://www.shakesville.com/2008/10/feminism-101.html) ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/167 "2015-09-01T21:02:43Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Indeed the blog did give some stats, if you were willing to click the links. Apparently that wasn’t something you cared to do. The stats in the “comprehensive study” (it is neither a study nor comprehensive) do not address the points raised. That doesn’t mean we don’t have rape culture, but it’s not doing the best job helping establish that we do. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/168 "2015-09-01T21:43:50Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I kinda’ sit in the middle on this issue but… > > …really? Lots of women have rape as part of their daily life? If that’s true then I’ll agree we have a culture of rape. > > Garrison Keillor once told a story that involved the people in Lake Wobegone having an argument. Something that he said that stuck with me: what do you do when both sides are absolutely right? > > On the one side women see some men get away with rape for lake of evidence or apathy, like the Steubenville case. This can lead to women being frustrated and/or scared and is extremely emotional. On the other side men see cases where other men get wrongly accused of rape and serve jail time. That’s also scary. It becomes further muddled because sex is such a powerful motivator. > > Both sides are right and it’s a tough topic to come up with a solution. The thing is, “minimizing, as much as possible, rape” and “minimizing, as much as possible, false accusations of rape” is not a zero sum game or a sliding scale that we are seeking balance on. These things exist on different axises. Not shaming rape victims or blaming them for being raped does not endanger men. Not comparing a person’s body to “cash hanging out of their back pocket” does not endanger men. Having good education on the definitions of consent and recommending positive consent as the gold standard does not endanger men (indeed, it protects men). Not telling women to live limited, circumscribed lives avoiding any potential danger does not endanger men. Processing rape kits does not endanger men (again, protects men). Speaking out against depictions of sexual violence as “hot” or “sexy” does not endanger men. Rape counseling does not endanger men. Giving people who are raped in Peace Corps or the military appropriate counseling and access to legal tools does not endanger men. Frowning on dumb rape jokes does not endanger men. Not telling women they have been damaged or are worthless after being raped does not endanger men. There are a few intersections between the “don’t rape people” and “don’t falsely accuse people of rape.” I can see intersections, for example, in victim confidentiality and in campus disciplinary procedures. But somehow, whenever we have these discussion, the usual suspects show up and want to make the same canned Red Pill talking points about largely unrelated stuff over and over again. I feel perfectly fine calling these people rape apologists. Whenever anything even tangentially related to rape comes up, they say “It didn’t happen. And if it did, it’s no big deal. And if it is, it’s her fault. And if it wasn’t, it’s just the natural order of thing.” ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/169 "2015-09-01T22:34:05Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > The stats in the “comprehensive study” (it is neither a study nor comprehensive) do not address the points raised. > > That doesn’t mean we don’t have rape culture, but it’s not doing the best job helping establish that we do. I think it does. I think it is a very thorough and thoughtful study. However for those who have never experienced what it is like to deal with rape culture can just buoy in it and it makes no difference to them. Surrounded but immune to the horror. It’s just easier to sweep it away then to address the issues as this blog has. The upshot is for one in 33 men it has consequence, for one in 6 women it has consequence. To be the lucky ones not part of the statistic doesn’t mean it’s not an issue for all to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/170 "2015-09-01T23:16:08Z")
Rape culture also includes things like women walking to their car with their keys laced between their fingers. Its a single woman who has a male voice on her answering machine “just to be safe.” Its not walking to your car in heels because you can’t run, or meeting a first date rather than letting him pick you up because “you never know.” Not all women live their lives making small allowances that will make rape more difficult, but I’m willing to bet that most of us have done something on the “rape prevention checklist” - from not drinking much unless there is a sober friend you can trust or leaving a drink unattended, to calling the campus escort service to walk you from the library to the dorm. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/171 "2015-09-01T23:18:56Z")
This article seems pertinent, an interview with an author of a book that came out on the 25th titled _Asking For It_. > **['Righteous Fury Helps Me Process': An Interview with Kate Harding | Hazlitt](https://hazlitt.net/feature/righteous-fury-helps-me-process-interview-kate-harding)** > > Talking about rape culture, the overblown fear of false accusations, and using humour to make the unthinkable thinkable with the author of Asking For It.  > [@](#): > > But once you look a little closer, you see that actually, although we say we think rape is the second worst crime after murder, we don’t treat it that way at all. And we don’t, as a culture, show any real interest in punishing rapists or preventing predators from finding other victims. Not the most common sexual predators, anyway. We’re super keen to punish the stereotypical stranger rapist who uses a weapon—if we can find him—but that’s a tiny fraction of actual rapes. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/172 "2015-09-01T23:39:54Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Rape culture also includes things like women walking to their car with their keys laced between their fingers. Its a single woman who has a male voice on her answering machine “just to be safe.” Its not walking to your car in heels because you can’t run, or meeting a first date rather than letting him pick you up because “you never know.” > > Not all women live their lives making small allowances that will make rape more difficult, but I’m willing to bet that most of us have done something on the “rape prevention checklist” - from not drinking much unless there is a sober friend you can trust or leaving a drink unattended, to calling the campus escort service to walk you from the library to the dorm. You can count me in on the “most of us” list, although my primary concern was not sexual violence. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2015, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/173 "2015-09-01T23:42:30Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Rape culture also includes things like women walking to their car with their keys laced between their fingers. Its a single woman who has a male voice on her answering machine “just to be safe.” Its not walking to your car in heels because you can’t run, or meeting a first date rather than letting him pick you up because “you never know.” > > Not all women live their lives making small allowances that will make rape more difficult, but I’m willing to bet that most of us have done something on the “rape prevention checklist” - from not drinking much unless there is a sober friend you can trust or leaving a drink unattended, to calling the campus escort service to walk you from the library to the dorm. Yep. It also includes men standing by their male friends accused of rape regardless of evidence or guilt or innocence because of feelings of personal loyalty and solidarity. It includes brutalizers of women maintaining their fame and fortune and popularity. It includes the ubiquity of prison rape jokes and acceptance. It includes the dismissal of male rape victims as having enjoyed it. Rape culture damages men by promoting the idea that men must necessarily be the sexual aggressors, and that men who claim they are raped are either to weak to worry about, enjoyed it, or deserved it. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/174 "2015-09-02T01:21:17Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > 1/3 of all Americans tune in to watch the Super Bowl every year. > > Show me anything related to rape that comes one iota close to that and maybe you have something. What about curling, is that not sports culture? What about drug culture? The “gay lifestyle”? Does something have to be mass broadcast for a middle class audience to qualify as a culture? I think you and a number of other people are confusing the word “culture” with “entertainment” or “society”. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/175 "2015-09-02T01:33:27Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > I think you and a number of other people are confusing the word “culture” with “entertainment” or “society”. Yeah I think I’m still getting hung up and confused re: the terminology. I don’t really like the definition provided. There’s a phenomenon, which comes in many flavors, which manifests in different people and groups, that we can talk about and aim policy at. But when I put my science hat on, I have trouble bounding and quantifying. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/176 "2015-09-02T02:51:44Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Yeah I think I’m still getting hung up and confused re: the terminology. I don’t really like the definition provided. There’s a phenomenon, which comes in many flavors, which manifests in different people and groups, that we can talk about and aim policy at. But when I put my science hat on, I have trouble bounding and quantifying. I posted about the Tailhook scandal of the early 90’s. It was a big disgusting story of the actions of the Navy and the cover up. The government and the legal minds of the day were going to stop this stuff in their tracks. The sad thing is nothing much has changed in 20 years. It’s a rape culture that continues today. The report is depressing but enlightening all the same. [http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/booming/revisiting-the-militarys-tailhook-scandal-video.html?\_r=](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/booming/revisiting-the-militarys-tailhook-scandal-video.html?_r=) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/177 "2015-09-02T06:00:30Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > Yeah I think I’m still getting hung up and confused re: the terminology. I don’t really like the definition provided. There’s a phenomenon, which comes in many flavors, which manifests in different people and groups, that we can talk about and aim policy at. But when I put my science hat on, I have trouble bounding and quantifying. Don’t put the hat on, then. Some things _aren’t_ in the realm of science, as I already intimated above. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/178 "2015-09-02T11:03:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Don’t put the hat on, then. Some things _aren’t_ in the realm of science, as I already intimated above. That’s why I don’t like the definition in post 13, because it correlates the culture with a metric and demands the hat. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/179 "2015-09-02T11:09:23Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > That’s why I don’t like the definition in post 13, because it correlates the culture with a metric and demands the hat. Its a social science - social scientists frequently have to work without hard metrics and with fuzzy correlations. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2015, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203/180 "2015-09-02T11:13:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Don’t put the hat on, then. Some things _aren’t_ in the realm of science, as I already intimated above. What, really? We can explore the inner workings of atoms and send a goddamn space robot to goddamn Pluto, but accurate, informed data on human behavior is just impossible to gather? With respect, bullshit. Getting data on politicized topics in which people have both political and personal reasons to lie is difficult, yes, but it’s not impossible. And while defining a culture rigorously is difficult, we can always use simple proxies like geography as a first-order approximation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture-and-date-rape-debate/729203.md?page=10)