# ''Rape Culture'' **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 19, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040 "2010-05-19T19:28:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/141 "2010-05-22T17:19:11Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > The very fact that you can get men freaking out and yelling by using the term “rape culture” at all means that it’s an effective tool to challenge privilege. If guys gave up their privilege, they wouldn’t be getting mad when the term is used. Nonsense. Surprising as it may seem, tarring all men with the same brush for the actions of a degenerate few is going to piss people off _even if it’s completely inaccurate_. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/142 "2010-05-22T17:23:31Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Nonsense. Surprising as it may seem, tarring all men with the same brush for the actions of a degenerate few is going to piss people off _even if it’s completely inaccurate_. Now you know how women feel when men bring up the false accusation of rape argument. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/143 "2010-05-22T19:15:51Z")
Also, one suspects that if the rights and wellbeing of women were a high priority, and also that if men were the ones more likely to be the victims than the perpetrators of rape, that there would be a greater focus on [funding the processing of rape kits](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sexual-assault-victims-congress-solve-rape-kit-backlog/story?id=10701295&page=1) and other tools necessary to securing convictions for rape. From the story: > [@](#): > > Testifying before a House panel today, Neumann described how for six hours, a specially trained nurse fleeced her body, pulling hairs, swabbing her thighs and vagina, and taking pictures of bruises and scratch marks on her back. The nurse placed the evidence in a series of sterile envelopes and sent the kit to law enforcement for DNA testing. > > “Although I just wanted to pretend nothing happened, I knew what I needed to do,” Neumann told the House panel. “It was very hard to go through. My only consolation was that this exam could be used to put my rapist behind bars.” > > But three years, five months and four days later, Neumann’s kit remains untouched and her rapist uncharged after prosecutors told her they didn’t have the funds or enough of a legal case to justify having her rape kit tested. You can maybe forgive us if we form the opinion that cutting down on the numbers of violent sexual assaults isn’t a high priority for the predominantly male lawmakers, and why we tend to assume we aren’t going to get any help with lesser assaults either. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/144 "2010-05-22T20:35:14Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > The very fact that you can get men freaking out and yelling by using the term “rape culture” at all means that it’s an effective tool to challenge privilege. If guys gave up their privilege, they wouldn’t be getting mad when the term is used. Because if they gave up their privilege, they would no longer have that underlying understanding that all women are available to them if they want it badly enough and they would no longer also have that comforting knowledge that if they go too far the woman probably won’t be believed anyway and even if she is believed the “boys will be boys” mentality will go a long way toward shielding them from the consequences of their actions. The term “rape culture” is an effective barometer of where we stand in fighting it. This just seems kind of circular reasoning. Criticizing the existence of the phrase rape culture means that it must be true? There may be a rape culture–it just seems like according to this, though, there’s no way to prove it doesn’t exist. Also, if it did exist, wouldn’t men be saying, “Yeah, it’s awesome, go rape culture!”? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2010, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/145 "2010-05-22T21:03:18Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > This just seems kind of circular reasoning. Criticizing the existence of the phrase rape culture means that it must be true? There may be a rape culture–it just seems like according to this, though, there’s no way to prove it doesn’t exist. > > Also, if it did exist, wouldn’t men be saying, “Yeah, it’s awesome, go rape culture!”? Not “criticizing” it, I mean the kind of full fledged high speed comeapart it’s possible to spark off while discussing rape culture and male privilege. We’re talking foaming at the mouth, vicious craziness of thoroughly unparalleled hatefulness at the very idea that women might be entitled to the sovereignty of their own bodies and might have a different view of the world than the prevailaing consensus of the d00ds. Which, in a way, is rather an “awesome, go rape culture” sort of response, wouldn’t you say? I mean really, check out [this Shakesville blog post](http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2010/05/still.html), especially the bit about the [Unmoderated Rape Thread](http://shakesville.wordpress.com/2007/05/11/rape-is-hilarious/) that’s STILL getting crazyass comments three years later, and comments about how the blog writer ought to feel flattered she was raped since she’s obviously too fat and ugly to get “sex” any other way. And all that hatred because a woman dared to say that rape jokes suck and aren’t funny. I mean, seriously, we aren’t allowed to say that? Someone’s privilege is so threatened by women not appreciating rape jokes that it requires a level of vehemence and vituperation of that monumentally disproportionate level? A few choice entries: > [@](#): > > Stupid Whore Fucker > February 20, 2009 at 8:41 am > > YOU ARE A STUPID WHORE, that WAS LUCKY TO GET FUCKED UP THE ASS!!! STOP COMPLAINING, FAT WHORE!!! YOU’RE PROBABLY TOO UGLY TO GET RAPED!!! YOU DESERVE TO BE ABUSED, YOU FAT FUCKING CUNT WHORE!!! SPREAD YOUR LEGS, AND TAKE MY HARD COCK IN YOUR HAIRY VAGINA!!! YOU NEED SOME DISCIPLINE, WHORE!!! SMACK!!! WHACK!!! OWWWWW!!! ME TARZAN, YOU JANE!!! GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN, AND PUT ON YOUR BURKA, MY NAUGHTY LITTLE FUCK-TOY!!! SPREAD YOUR LEGS, AND PREPARE TO BE FUCKED HARD!!! > [@](#): > > Screaming Dragon!!! > December 1, 2008 at 1:30 am > > This post proves that you STUPID BITCHES NEED A COCK UP THE ASS!!! YOU NEED ME TO FUCK YOU HARD, With you TIED TO THE BED, WITH MY HUGE HARD COCK INSIDE YOUR VAGINA, AND YOU SCREAMING MY NAME!!! I WILL MAKE YOU MY BITCH!!! I SHALL FUCK YOU HARD!!! YOU WHORES SUCK MY BIG COCK!!! AAHHHHHHHHHH > [@](#): > > estimate > October 7, 2008 at 4:32 am > > I read this and I wanted to display how wrong you are with an insult because I didn’t feel like spending time typing but then I remembered that you are a women and you know it so you know that there isn’t anything worse than you. Any insult would be just reminding you that you are indeed a woman so you can’t be right about anything. > > And a congrats on losing your virginity but you don’t really need to tell us. We don’t care. > [@](#): > > Rape clock > September 12, 2008 at 2:48 am > > I LOL’D If you were to stop being such a stupid bitch and accept the raping then you wouldn’t have gotten beaten amirite? And the rapist seems to not have completed the job since you are here typing. And all this would of never happened if you never left the kitchen you dumb bitch. And to all you you feminazi’s gb2 Kitchen NAO and make me a sammich. All this because one woman objected to some pretty goddamned objectionable rape jokes. These are people who think they’re completely justified saying things like this on a feminist blog, read mostly by feminists, not hurting anyone, just going about their business. Our society says it’s okay for men to just blarf this sort of nastiness on any woman who displeases them, especially ones who challenge their unquestionable privilege. You can write it off as “internet tough guys,” but the way the language is couched and the vehemence indicates these are people who might just take it to the next level if the circumstances were right. Just sayin’… ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/146 "2010-05-23T01:40:06Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Our society says it’s okay for men to just blarf this sort of nastiness on any woman who displeases them, especially ones who challenge their unquestionable privilege. You can write it off as “internet tough guys,” but the way the language is couched and the vehemence indicates these are people who might just take it to the next level if the circumstances were right. > > Just sayin’… Crap, I didn’t get the memo that’s this is consider OK behavior. Keep me in the loop next time. I don’t think it’s “internet tough guys.” This is the power of anonymity. People can act out their worst impulses when there are no consequences. There’s a thought experiment I’ve heard that says imagine you could do whatever you wanted with no repercussions (but nothing violating physics either). There would be no law, no social stigma, even no punishment in hell if you believe in that. Whatever you would do in that circumstance reveals your character. If you steal diamonds or sexually abuse someone or just go around naked, you are supposed to realize what values are intrinsic to yourself and worldview and which are imposed by society and rule-makers. You’re right. Most likely these guys would take it to the next level if they truly thought they could get away with it. However, I don’t think there is a direct correlation between the value of free speech (which is why we allow people to say things like this) and a rape culture that encourages this behavior. We don’t talk about the US being a white supremacist culture (racist yes, but supremacist no) because of what jackasses write on blogs and websites. ---
**Author:** ![0xEFF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/0/ac8455/32.png) [@0xEFF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/0xEFF)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/147 "2010-05-23T16:04:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Also brought up was the subject of ‘‘rape culture’’ and whether we do or do not live in a society that encourages and trivializes the sexual oppression of women. We absolutely live in a rape culture. Consider, from grade school all students are educated that men are expected to initiate all sexual advances, while women are expected to receive them. Remember back to your first school dance, the boys are told to go ask the girls for a dance. Later in life, at the bar or other social situations, the men are expected to initiate things with the women. If things go well, men are expected to ask permission of the woman’s father before asking her hand in marriage. In all levels of our society and culture, from birth to late adulthood, men are taught to be the aggressor and women are taught to be receptive. For many men, this expectation of initiative translates to an expectation of entitlement. Wesley Clark has asserted he has the right to call a woman a cunt if she rebukes his advances. This is a common sentiment among not so bright men. Our culture is full of not so bright men. These expectations of society apply to situations of drunken sex. If a woman gets black-out-drunk and a man has sex with her, it’s her fault. Our society teaches and enforces this idea. The reason stems from the above expectation of reception and aggression. Our society has defined consent to mean a clear refusal by the receiver. This assumes the aggressor is entitled to make sexual advances unless clearly rebuked by the receiver. This is wrong. This promotes and creates a culture of rape. What if, from the first school dance, we as a society banded together and said to all of our children, “If you think someone’s cute, go ask them to dance.” What if we said it doesn’t matter if you’re a man or a woman, we, as a society, will support your pursuit and initiation. Later on in life, what if women were not perceived as bitches or “strong willed” if they walked up to a guy they found attractive at a bar and started hitting on him? What if we all supported the idea of women proposing to men without the consent of the patriarch? This doesn’t happen. This won’t happen because men have a vested interest in maintaining the idea that they have a right to aggressively pursue women, and women are expected to be receptive. This, ladies and gentlemen, is what a rape culture looks like. Look around you. Until we, as a society, shift our idea of consent away from an expectation of clear “No” to an expectation of “Yes, for the love of god let’s FUCK RIGHT NOW” we will live in a culture of rape. There will always be not-so-bright men who will continue to believe they’re entitled to have their sexual aggression received by women. We as a society must tell these men they must not be looking for a “No” but rather looking for enthusiastic willingness. – Jeff McCune ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/148 "2010-05-23T16:06:50Z")
Point of clarification, I don’t think **Wesley Clark** said he was justified in calling a woman a cunt for not dating him. He said: > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > May I point something out? Why do you and the other women on this board get to insult me, label me as ‘the problem’, say I encourage rape, etc? Doesn’t anyone see the irony that in a thread where you are upset that men can’t empathise with or respect you, then you turn around and insult other people? “You’re maybe not so bright”, how is that different than me calling a woman a cunt if she refuses to go out with me? So he was using it as a hypothetical. Not saying that he refers to women who won’t go out with him a cunt. ---
**Author:** ![0xEFF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/0/ac8455/32.png) [@0xEFF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/0xEFF)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/149 "2010-05-23T16:23:48Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Point of clarification, I don’t think **Wesley Clark** said he was justified in calling a woman a cunt for not dating him. > > So he was using it as a hypothetical. Not saying that he refers to women who won’t go out with him a cunt. The statement “ **Wesley Clark** is not so bright” is clearly justified. He then equated this statement to calling a woman a cunt for not dating him, therefore he’s asserting he feels justified calling women a cunt for not dating him. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/150 "2010-05-23T17:06:11Z")
I didn’t read it that way. Just that he’s asking why it’s okay to insult people for one thing but not for another. To address another point I’ve never seen anyone say a woman is a bitch just for initiating sexual advances. I mean, maybe I’ve run in more progressive circles, but I’ve just never seen that. ---
**Author:** ![0xEFF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/0/ac8455/32.png) [@0xEFF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/0xEFF)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/151 "2010-05-23T17:55:07Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I didn’t read it that way. Just that he’s asking why it’s okay to insult people for one thing but not for another. There’s a very good chance I’m reading too much into his statement and I’m wrong about what he meant to convey. Giving him the benefit of doubt, I’ll concede to your perspective and assume he is not asserting it’s justified to call a woman a cunt for rebuking him. However, I believe my point is still valid. In the non-hypothetical, many men in our society do feel entitled to aggressively pursue women and expect women to be receptive. When a woman is not receptive, these men place the burden of guilt on the woman’s behavior rather than their own behavior and our society condones and in many cases supports this expectation of entitlement. The construction worker is the canonical example, but this is very blue collar and easy to marginalize. I believe it’s pervasive as my examples above indicated. Even professionally, the huge double standard of dress code between men and women support my claim. > [@](#): > > To address another point I’ve never seen anyone say a woman is a bitch just for initiating sexual advances. I mean, maybe I’ve run in more progressive circles, but I’ve just never seen that. This was a poor example, I agree. While I have heard assertive women called a bitch, the example was more hypothetical than concrete. I hope you do agree, however, that assertive and ambitious women are often characterized negatively both in professional and social situations. As I mentioned, I believe our society reinforces and supports this through a persons life through expected gender roles and behavior. This expectation of gender roles as established by society contributes to a culture of rape. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/152 "2010-05-23T18:06:38Z")
> [@0xEFF](#): > > The statement “ **Wesley Clark** is not so bright” is clearly justified. Not in this forum, it is not. Do not insult other posters outside the BBQ Pit. > [@0xEFF](#): > > He then equated this statement to calling a woman a cunt for not dating him, therefore he’s asserting he feels justified calling women a cunt for not dating him. Torturing another poster’s words to draw a conclusion not supported by their actual statement is not a true violation, (it is to often a common event), but it does your own argument no good, especially when used in conjunction with a personal insult. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![0xEFF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/0/ac8455/32.png) [@0xEFF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/0xEFF)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/153 "2010-05-23T18:14:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Not in this forum, it is not. Do not insult other posters outside the BBQ Pit. > Torturing another poster’s words to draw a conclusion not supported by their actual statement is not a true violation, (it is to often a common event), but it does your own argument no good, especially when used in conjunction with a personal insult. > > Knock it off. > [/Moderating] I will. Wesley Clark, I apologize for twisting your words to imply you expressed something you didn’t mean to express. It won’t happen again. If I insulted you, I apologize for that as well. – Jeff McCune ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/154 "2010-05-23T22:07:33Z")
> [@0xeff](#): > > if things go well, men are expected to ask permission of the woman’s father before asking her hand in marriage. bwhahahaha! ---
**Author:** ![0xEFF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/0/ac8455/32.png) [@0xEFF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/0xEFF)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/155 "2010-05-24T00:22:23Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > bwhahahaha! Show me some data and prove me wrong. A trivial google search clearly shows this is still a very common practice. In many cases expected. [http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/18839124/](http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/18839124/) If you want something worth laughing at, how about my assertion a diamond ring is an indicator of rape culture. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040/156 "2010-05-24T00:34:11Z")
bwhahahaha! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-culture/540040.md?page=7)