# Rape exceptions to abortion bans **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772 "2010-09-23T15:12:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/81 "2010-09-23T23:01:17Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > Aside from complete legalization, anyway. > > I would even say that complete legalization will not work as it creates a false sense of ‘it’s ok’ because the state says it is, when the state should not be involved, this is a very personal issue between mother father baby and ‘God’, the state just interferes with that. the best and most honest thing the state can do is say we are not able to handle the issue of abortion and will no longer address it. …and the only way for the state to say “we are not able to handle the issue of abortion and will no longer address it” is to completely legalize it. “Not addressing it” = “not litigating people for either doing it, or for not doing it”. There is literally no other way for the government to do what you propose besides legalization. (How does it feel to be pro-choice?) And smoking is legal, drinking is legal, flunking out of school is legal, being a truther is legal, being a scientologist is legal… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/82 "2010-09-23T23:30:36Z")
> [@The\_Luggage](#): > > I’m surprised that it is thought that this exception would lead to lots of cries of rape just to qualify. It is no small thing, complaining of rape. Since most women will probably know the father, and presumably not wish to have him imprisoned, are they really likely to make the allegation? DNA tests are going to prove, sooner or later, whether there’s any truth in it. > > I can imagine the desperation of an unwanted pregnancy - I’m just not sure it would drive most, or indeed more than a tiny fraction, to make such a serious false allegation. I think you greatly overestimate the reluctance of women to make false accusations, especially in a situation like this where the State has effectively declared war on them. I expect most women in this situation would be willing to ruin just about any man on general principles, much less to protect themselves. If they are going to be punished and degraded just for being women, why not punish a man for being a man? That’s how I see their reasoning going. I expect you’ll see an increase in the murder of men by women too, for the same reason. Women aren’t going to feel much obligation to abide by the rules of a society dedicated to their torment, or an obligation to be civilized to men when there is an effective war between men and women going on. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/83 "2010-09-23T23:35:54Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And smoking is legal, drinking is legal, flunking out of school is legal, being a truther is legal, being a scientologist is legal… I think you address a deeper issue, the validity of the state to declare anything legal. Is me petting my cat legal? It doesn’t matter, it’s not a state issues, they have no say, nor should they, by saying that they do they only discredit themselves. It is beyond legal, it is beyond the state’s authority. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/84 "2010-09-23T23:39:56Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > And smoking is legal, drinking is legal, flunking out of school is legal, being a truther is legal, being a scientologist is legal… > > I think you address a deeper issue, the validity of the state to declare anything legal. Is me petting my cat legal? It doesn’t matter, it’s not a state issues, they have no say, nor should they, by saying that they do they only discredit themselves. It is beyond legal, it is beyond the state’s authority. So what, exactly, do you expect them to do? Declaring petting your cat to be illegal is obviously bad, but if _refraining_ from making it illegal and leaving you _completely_ alone isn’t enough, what should they do instead? _Pay_ you to pet your cat or something? In case it wasn’t obvious, I’m of the opinion that “making it legal” is the **ultimate** in government hands-offedness. You can’t get any more distanced than complete apathy and inaction, which is all that making something legal is. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/85 "2010-09-23T23:40:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@The\_Luggage](#): > > > > I’m surprised that it is thought that this exception would lead to lots of cries of rape just to qualify. It is no small thing, complaining of rape. Since most women will probably know the father, and presumably not wish to have him imprisoned, are they really likely to make the allegation? DNA tests are going to prove, sooner or later, whether there’s any truth in it. > > > > I can imagine the desperation of an unwanted pregnancy - I’m just not sure it would drive most, or indeed more than a tiny fraction, to make such a serious false allegation. > > I think you greatly overestimate the reluctance of women to make false accusations, especially in a situation like this where the State has effectively declared war on them. I expect most women in this situation would be willing to ruin just about any man on general principles, much less to protect themselves. If they are going to be punished and degraded just for being women, why not punish a man for being a man? That’s how I see their reasoning going. > > I expect you’ll see an increase in the murder of men by women too, for the same reason. Women aren’t going to feel much obligation to abide by the rules of a society dedicated to their torment, or an obligation to be civilized to men when there is an effective war between men and women going on. There’s no way this would become a gender war. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/86 "2010-09-24T00:05:09Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > There’s no way this would become a gender war. It is a gender war; the only question is how much women will fight back, or just let themselves be smacked around. This issue is all about the persecution of women, nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/87 "2010-09-24T00:08:06Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > In case it wasn’t obvious, I’m of the opinion that “making it legal” is the **ultimate** in government hands-offedness. You can’t get any more distanced than complete apathy and inaction, which is all that making something legal is. The issue is that by the state declaring it legal, it is authorizing the state to be the authority on something that they have really should no say on. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/88 "2010-09-24T00:13:36Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > In case it wasn’t obvious, I’m of the opinion that “making it legal” is the **ultimate** in government hands-offedness. You can’t get any more distanced than complete apathy and inaction, which is all that making something legal is. > > The issue is that by the state declaring it legal, it is authorizing the state to be the authority on something that they have really should no say on. It’s a medical procedure; they have obvious jurisdiction when it comes to such matters as ensuring it is safe, and in more civilized societies paying for it. Beyond that, declaring it legal is them saying they have no authority over who gets one and why. What are they supposed to do, declare it super-duper extra legal? ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/89 "2010-09-24T00:18:28Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > > [@InterestedObserver](#): > > > > The U.S.? It can be argued that this is the case, since abortions have DECREASED significantly under conditions of virtually on-demand, no limitation abortion and the deaths of women from the procedure have plummeted. > > > > But I suppose it depends on one’s definition of “bad”. > > I think he meant Canada, which has no legal restrictions on abortion at any point in a pregnancy (though obtaining one late in the game, or in rural areas, or being able to afford one when they’re not covered, may be another question). > > And has turned into a nation of barbarians, heathens and sluts as a result. Almost exactly the U.S scenario. And I’ve HEARD that about Canada…we really MUST build a wall to protect us from those animals! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/90 "2010-09-24T00:19:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@kanicbird](#): > > > > The issue is that by the state declaring it legal, it is authorizing the state to be the authority on something that they have really should no say on. > > It’s a medical procedure; they have obvious jurisdiction when it comes to such matters as ensuring it is safe, and in more civilized societies paying for it. Beyond that, declaring it legal is them saying they have no authority over who gets one and why. What are they supposed to do, declare it super-duper extra legal? Do you want men defining the rules you live by, isn’t that the same reason you are against religion? Religion uses guilt, the state uses imprisonment. It should be extra-legal, beyond legality, beyond the state’s ability to rule, it is not within the authority of the state to rule on a personal matter of reproduction in any way. The closest may be saying that the state can say it’s not illegal, but they should have no say in saying’s it’s legal, they have no legit authority to decide on this. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/91 "2010-09-24T00:27:54Z")
I’d actually agree with **kanicbird** –if abortion had never been made illegal to begin with. But, once it has been, the state has to act to put it back to where it was, and the only way it can act is to make it legal. Even if it only does so by repealing laws that made it illegal. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/92 "2010-09-24T00:33:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > **Villa** : Instead of speculating, why don’t you look at abortion rates in places that ban abortion except in case of rape? I think N. Ireland falls in that category. It is a minor inconvenience for most NI people to go to a place where abortion is legal, e.g. Britain, I think a fake rape plea would be _way_ more inconvenient for an NI woman than say paying for the ferry or a plane to Britain. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/93 "2010-09-24T00:36:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Do you want men defining the rules you live by, isn’t that the same reason you are against religion? No, I’m against religion because it is irrational, malignant and factually wrong. But when it comes to “men defining the rules you live by”, that (although I’d change “men” for “people”) is civilization and morality. > [@kanicbird](#): > > It should be extra-legal, beyond legality, beyond the state’s ability to rule, it is not within the authority of the state to rule on a personal matter of reproduction in any way. Wrong, it is in the state’s domain when it involves the possible harm of one person by another; therefore it has a perfect right to demand that doctors be trained and licensed properly, that it be practiced in a safe and sanitary fashion, that women aren’t knocked over the head and subjected to forced abortions, and so on. As for the rest, declaring it legal is as far as the state can go towards a “hands off” position. > [@kanicbird](#): > > The closest may be saying that the state can say it’s not illegal, but they should have no say in saying’s it’s legal, they have no legit authority to decide on this. Considering that part of the job of the State is to prevent other people from forcing their will on you, they most certainly have the right to declare abortion legal, and to send large armed people to haul away people who are trying to force you to not do legal things. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/94 "2010-09-24T00:48:19Z")
I guess you could pay the law-enforcement costs of aborted-fetus DNA testing if you just made it a fifty-million-dollar fine to pet kanicbird’s cat. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/95 "2010-09-24T02:02:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > There’s no way this would become a gender war. > > It is a gender war; the only question is how much women will fight back, or just let themselves be smacked around. This issue is all about the persecution of women, nothing else. Except that there is an insignificant difference between the % of pro-life women and men. Both in the low to mid 40% of Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/96 "2010-09-24T02:33:17Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > What about statutory rapes? Free pass for abortions for girls below the age of consent? And all the girls who’s Father walked in… ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/97 "2010-09-24T02:46:34Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > It is a gender war; the only question is how much women will fight back, or just let themselves be smacked around. This issue is all about the persecution of women, nothing else. > > Except that there is an insignificant difference between the % of pro-life women and men. Both in the low to mid 40% of Americans. Irrelevant; plenty of people of both genders hate and abuse their own. It’s not women who beat up or kill men for being “unmanly”. Women have been taught for millennia to despise their own gender, to feel hatred, fear or contempt for everything about womanhood. And many, many of them are devout followers of religions that have an obsessive hatred and fear of women. Women have always been some of their own worst enemies. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/98 "2010-09-24T05:39:12Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > It is a minor inconvenience for most NI people to go to a place where abortion is legal I’ve never heard any of those who have done so describe it as a “minor” inconvenience. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/99 "2010-09-24T06:12:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > > > In Randy Alcorn’s book "Pro Life Answers to Pro Choice Arguments " (the title is one of the very few places he calls us “pro-choice,” preferring "pro-abortion!), he states that the innocent child should not be put to death for the crimes of _his_ father (Italics added, fetuses are always referred to as males). > > In the English language, the masculine includes the feminine, Yes, and it’s also a Biblical reference. Among other verses, > [@2 Chronicles 25:4 (Young's Literal Translation)](#): > > And their sons he hath not put to death, but [did] as is written in the law, in the book of Moses, whom Jehovah commanded, saying, Fathers do not die for sons, and sons die not for fathers, but each for his own sin they die. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/100 "2010-09-24T13:07:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Except that there is an insignificant difference between the % of pro-life women and men. Both in the low to mid 40% of Americans. > > Irrelevant; plenty of people of both genders hate and abuse their own. It’s not women who beat up or kill men for being “unmanly”. Women have been taught for millennia to despise their own gender, to feel hatred, fear or contempt for everything about womanhood. And many, many of them are devout followers of religions that have an obsessive hatred and fear of women. Women have always been some of their own worst enemies. So, it’s a war between A and B, but it’s “irrelevant” that both sides are made up of equal numbers of A and B. Got it. I guess women are just weak-willed and unable to know what is best for them. Their pretty little heads just can’t comprehend all this stuff! :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772.md?page=6)