# Rape exceptions to abortion bans **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 23, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772 "2010-09-23T15:12:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/141 "2010-09-26T04:56:15Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > I always wondered why those most opposed to abortion also seem to be opposed to REAL sex ed (not just the teaching of abstinence which doesn’t work) and birth control, which is the ONLY thng that will actually reduce the number of abortions by any significant number. > > For the category of abortion opponents that you’re describing - which I accept is not all of them - abortion is only one element of a broader agenda, which is the reassertion of the patriarchal nuclear family structure. Anything that threatens that structure is to be opposed. That obviously includes women controlling their sexuality and fertility, by \*any \*means. True. History is full of examples of men attempting to keep the power in their hands. I don’t know from the complete truth of the “Divinci Code”, but it is certainly a fact that most organized religions make women out to be weak servents, if not actual embodiments of evil. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/142 "2010-09-26T06:55:48Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > They might not have described journeying from NI to Britain as a minor inconvenience but that is what it is. With respect, I think your saying that really shows your own social and economic class bias. It might not be a big deal to _you_ to have to travel to have a medical procedure carried out. For women on a low income, women who have jobs that aren’t 9 to 5 and require rearranging, women with children who need to find someone to care for them, women with an immigration status that may make it difficult or impossible for them to travel, women in far-flung rural areas for whom getting to a RyanAir flight or Stena boat is an ordeal in itself, women with unsupportive families or partners who they don’t feel they can explain to why they _have_ to go away for a couple days - it is definitely not just a minor inconvenience to them. A minor inconvenience is having to go to a different grocery store because the product you need is out of stock at the one you normally shop, if you had to go to England for it I think you’d see the difference. > [@](#): > > I don’t think NI people pay more at point of service than any other British citizen, but I could be wrong on that. You are wrong on that. Abortion is free on the NHS for women in Britain, but Irish women (north or south) have to pay for it. The reason for this is that the NHS will only pay for abortions if the woman has a referral letter from her GP - and with abortion being illegal across Ireland, GPs cannot provide referral letters. So northern women who have abortions are paying twice, first through their taxes and second through fees at the point of service which are, as another poster noted, fairly high (and undoubtedly out of the reach of many women during an economic downturn). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2010, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/143 "2010-09-26T12:34:47Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > I think he meant Canada, which has no legal restrictions on abortion at any point in a pregnancy (though obtaining one late in the game, or in rural areas, or being able to afford one when they’re not covered, may be another question). Abortions are covered by all provincial medicare plans. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/144 "2010-09-27T16:48:14Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > > > I think he meant Canada, which has no legal restrictions on abortion at any point in a pregnancy (though obtaining one late in the game, or in rural areas, or being able to afford one when they’re not covered, may be another question). > > Abortions are covered by all provincial medicare plans. I think this is true, technically, but not always in practice e.g. if abortion services are not available in your area after 12 weeks and you’ve got to travel to another province, it may not be covered. There’s a [chart here](http://www.prochoice.org/canada/regional.html) with some of the rules province by province. Ironically enough, a friend of mine had to travel from Ontario _to_ the United States as a young teenager to get an abortion. I don’t know all the details, only that she discovered she was pregnant quite late (she was somewhat overweight and on Depo Provera), and couldn’t find a doctor in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/145 "2010-09-27T21:56:41Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > I always wondered why those most opposed to abortion also seem to be opposed to REAL sex ed (not just the teaching of abstinence which doesn’t work) and birth control, which is the ONLY thng that will actually reduce the number of abortions by any significant number. > > For the category of abortion opponents that you’re describing - which I accept is not all of them - abortion is only one element of a broader agenda, which is the reassertion of the patriarchal nuclear family structure. Anything that threatens that structure is to be opposed. That obviously includes women controlling their sexuality and fertility, by \*any \*means. No one wants to “reassert the family structure” unless the specific family is not doing their job(which you must admit, many arent). I get what you are saying, but those that think the way you described are paranoid, which was obviously your point. Sex ed is the responsibility of the parents, but in the absence of ANY sexual education coming from 90% of today’s families, it falls to the people we have charged with educating our kids about everything else. The schools. Teaching abstinence only and assuming your kids are going to “just say no” is irresponsible at best, dangerous at worst. These kids are swimming upstream (no pun intended) against intense peer pressure, not to mention powerful hormones. We owe them the best safety net we can give them. Teach abstinencefirst, AND THEN, if they MUST have sex, how to do it safely and responsibly. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/146 "2010-09-28T01:27:38Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > > [@An\_Gadai](#): > > > > They might not have described journeying from NI to Britain as a minor inconvenience but that is what it is. > > With respect, I think your saying that really shows your own social and economic class bias. It might not be a big deal to _you_ to have to travel to have a medical procedure carried out. For women on a low income, women who have jobs that aren’t 9 to 5 and require rearranging, women with children who need to find someone to care for them, women with an immigration status that may make it difficult or impossible for them to travel, women in far-flung rural areas for whom getting to a RyanAir flight or Stena boat is an ordeal in itself, women with unsupportive families or partners who they don’t feel they can explain to why they _have_ to go away for a couple days - it is definitely not just a minor inconvenience to them. A minor inconvenience is having to go to a different grocery store because the product you need is out of stock at the one you normally shop, if you had to go to England for it I think you’d see the difference. > > > [@](#): > > > > I don’t think NI people pay more at point of service than any other British citizen, but I could be wrong on that. > > You are wrong on that. Abortion is free on the NHS for women in Britain, but Irish women (north or south) have to pay for it. The reason for this is that the NHS will only pay for abortions if the woman has a referral letter from her GP - and with abortion being illegal across Ireland, GPs cannot provide referral letters. So northern women who have abortions are paying twice, first through their taxes and second through fees at the point of service which are, as another poster noted, fairly high (and undoubtedly out of the reach of many women during an economic downturn). Travelling to the UK from NI or the ROI can cost as little as £10 return, so that part is a minor inconvenience. I wasn’t aware that Irish patients typically have to pay where British (non-NI) patients don’t and thanks for informing me on that. With regard to poverty and geographic isolation, those would still be a problem if abortion were legal in NI I imagine. I propose that women would still travel to Belfast or Derry etc. for the procedure rather than somewhere local (and I would imagine that local clinics might not make an appearance if abortion were legalised in NI). I probably sounded flippant when talking about travel but my main point was that a rape plea wouldn’t be more convenient than travel and also that while abortion is illegal in NI, that illegality isn’t as insurmountable as a similar prohibition would be in the US or Canada. Thanks for setting me straight with regard to the facts. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/147 "2010-09-28T05:44:53Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > Travelling to the UK from NI or the ROI can cost as little as £10 return, so that part is a minor inconvenience. The cost wasn’t specifically what I was referring to, but I will point out that there’s a huge difference between “can cost” and “is likely to cost”. I travel between the two islands regularly and I can think of a grand total of one occasion on which I’ve been able to get a fare that low. If it has to be done on a last-minute basis, and particularly on a weekend, it’ll be a lot higher. Anyway the cost of the procedure itself is more of an issue. > [@](#): > > With regard to poverty and geographic isolation, those would still be a problem if abortion were legal in NI I imagine. I propose that women would still travel to Belfast or Derry etc. for the procedure rather than somewhere local (and I would imagine that local clinics might not make an appearance if abortion were legalised in NI). That’s definitely true, and it would be a problem, though far less of a problem than having to travel onto Britain. > [@](#): > > my main point was that a rape plea wouldn’t be more convenient than travel I really think it depends on the person, and what exactly would be involved in making the rape plea. I think it’s also quite possible that in the heat of the moment it may _appear_ to a woman that making a rape plea would be the easier option, whether or not that turns out to be true in the long run. > [@](#): > > while abortion is illegal in NI, that illegality isn’t as insurmountable as a similar prohibition would be in the US or Canada. That’s obviously true and it’s demonstrated by the fact that there isn’t an obvious problem with illegal abortions the way there was in the US (I confess I don’t know much about Canada in this regard) prior to legalisation. However, from the point of view of the woman in the Six Counties who needs an abortion and can’t get one without travelling to Britain, and particularly if she’s one of the women I mentioned in my earlier post, knowing that she’d be even worse off if she lived in North America in the 1960s isn’t really going to be of much comfort. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/148 "2010-09-28T16:43:03Z")
Doctor in Northern Ireland here. Abortions are legally performed in hospitals here (at a rate of about 2-3 per week). To be legal it has to be agreed by a consultant psychiatrist and obstetrician (or 2 consultant obstetricians if it is purely for phsyical health reasons) that terminating the pregnancy will prevent the woman suffering grave physical, emotional or mental harm. I think you can see how that works, and most family doctors know who the “sympathetic” doctors are. Abortion isn’t legal for foetal abnormality at all, but it happens. Northern Irish women are more likely to continue a pregnancy after a diagnosis of a serious abnormality than women in the rest of the UK, but many don’t, and are admitted to hospital for “early induction of labour”- but when you induce labour pre-viability it is effectively T.O.P. Women do travel of course (and when you have access to their full medical records as a GP you realise it is actually much higher than many people think), but ordering Mifepristone (RU486) online for a DIY abortion is pretty common- and not good when it goes wrong. Legally, if a woman comes to see me, as her family doctor, requesting TOP for no other reason than “it’s not a good time for me” I cannot make an appointment for her at an English clinic or refer her to them, but I have internet access at my desk and we can look at the Marie Stopes or Britich Pregnancy Advisory Service website together. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2010, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/149 "2010-09-30T06:34:33Z")
By coincidence I just read something this morning about the effect of the Icelandic volcano on Irish women seeking abortion. For the relatively short time this disruption lasted it’s striking how many women were affected. One was a fourteen-year-old girl who, along with her mother, had to take a ferry to Liverpool, change to the train and make their way down to London. Imagine being fourteen and unhappily pregnant and having to go through with that. Other women found themselves stranded for a couple days on either side of the Irish Sea, with those in more advanced stages of pregnancy (and Irish women are already more likely than British women to have later abortions due to the extra hassle involved) facing even higher costs as a result. Fortunately for them some clinics waived their fees in these cases. Obviously this was an extraordinary event, but it does show how even the proximity and transport links between the two islands doesn’t mean it’s necessarily easy for Irish women to get British abortions when they need them. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/150 "2010-10-26T05:49:35Z")
More evidence that the need to go to England for an abortion isn’t just a “minor” inconvenience for Irish women: [Customs seized 1,216 packs of illegal abortion drugs in 2009](http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1026/1224282004957.html) > [@](#): > > Clinics such as the Marie Stopes Reproductive Choices, and a number of GPs who have declined to comment, say they have seen an increase in women seeking assistance after taking these drugs. In many cases, they say women affected said they could not afford to travel abroad for an abortion or, in the case of immigrant women, felt unable to leave the country due to their residency status. ---
**Author:** ![dukette71](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@dukette71](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dukette71)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/151 "2010-10-27T01:57:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Abortions as the result of rape are less than 1% of all abortions. > > I would have no trouble with saying that the filing of a police report of rape is sufficient to meet the exception. suppose you are 14 yrs old and the rapist is your friends father or brother and you just a kid who doesn’t want to make a bad situation worse by telling (yes, this is how kids think)? ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/152 "2010-10-28T23:25:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Abortions as the result of rape are less than 1% of all abortions. > > I would have no trouble with saying that the filing of a police report of rape is sufficient to meet the exception. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/153 "2010-10-29T14:10:26Z")
> [@margin](#): > > Cite? I’d have no problem believing that abortions resulting from later convicted rapes, or charged rapes, or even situations where rape is reported to the authorities accounts for less than 1% of all abortions. The trouble here is defining what abortion as a result of rape is. We can never have a definitive number for the percentage of abortions where the woman became pregnant as a result of an act which was non-consensual on the part of the woman, but I would say that number would be higher than 1%, because of (a) the generally accepted underreporting of rape; and (b) the situation that many people who have been raped are unaware that what happened to them was rape. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2010, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/154 "2010-10-29T14:19:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Abortions as the result of rape are less than 1% of all abortions. > > I would have no trouble with saying that the filing of a police report of rape is sufficient to meet the exception. > [@margin](#): > > Cite? As to the first sentence: [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/psrh/full/3711005.pdf) (see table 2) As to the second sentence: my post is my cite. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/155 "2010-10-30T19:17:37Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Hopefully, you’d be smart enough to realize that banning abortion will not save 1 million babies a year. Nicaragua banned abortion in 2006, and the number of abortions performed is estimated to have dropped by about half. A drop of half a million? That’s by no means perfect, but it’s not bad either. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772/156 "2010-10-30T20:12:33Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > A drop of half a million? That’s by no means perfect, but it’s not bad either. And if you’ve decided that hypothetical half-million is more important than the significant negative effects, I doubt anyone could convince you otherwise. Nevertheless, those effects would occur. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-exceptions-to-abortion-bans/554772.md?page=7)