# Rape Laws and how they have changed **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 5, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122 "2013-09-05T22:31:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/1 "2013-09-05T22:31:23Z")
I was reviewing old cases and came across this rape law from West Virginia which was only modified in 1978. I can’t imagine how people then thought this was sufficient. [QUOTE=W.Va. Code 61-2-15 (Repld. 1978)] If any male person carnally knows a female person, not his wife, against her will by force, or if any male person over the age of sixteen years carnally knows a female person of previous chaste character, not his wife, under that age, or if any male person over the age of sixteen years carnally knows a female person, not his wife, under the age of ten years, he shall be guilty of a felony, and, upon conviction, shall be punished with confinement in the penitentiary for life, . . . [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/2 "2013-09-06T05:42:11Z")
So you favor the death penalty for rape? Because it seems to me that life imprisonment is quite sufficient for the average case of rape. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/3 "2013-09-06T07:04:07Z")
The qualifiers, dude, look at the qualifiers - “not his wife,” “of previous chaste character…” “My client is not guilty because that 11-year-old is a slut!” Not to mention that it positively anticipates a man marrying - and fucking - a 9-year-old. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/4 "2013-09-06T07:07:59Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > So you favor the death penalty for rape? Because it seems to me that life imprisonment is quite sufficient for the average case of rape. I suspect the OP was reacting more to “not his wife” and “a female person _of previous chaste character_… under [the age of 16]”. “[A]gainst her will by force” (for a woman who is not your wife, 'cause of course your wife has like, already signed up for it whenever you want it) maybe also seems a bit restrictive–does that mean you literally have to hit the victim on the head or hold a knife to her throat, and that roofies in her drink or blatant fraud (dressing up as her husband and sneaking into the bedroom in the middle of the night) or just going and ahead and doing it when she freezes up and doesn’t do anything after first saying “No, please, don’t” were maybe all OK? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/5 "2013-09-06T12:20:55Z")
Where’d that “under the age of 16” come from? It’s not in the quote. Alternative emphasis: It’s rape if you use force. But if she’s known to be chaste then prosecution doesn’t have to show the use of force; and if she’s under 10 then the law conclusively presumes chastity. (I imagine that the younger the over-10 victim, the thinner the ice you’re on if you’re trying to show the victim was not chaste.) Whatever earlier generations may have thought about the advisability of prosecuting rape within marriage, did West Virginia actually allow anyone to marry an under-10 prior to 1978? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/6 "2013-09-06T12:29:27Z")
Hey, it’s better than the FBI, they were using this definition: > [@](#): > > Carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will. Until… er… January of this year. “Carnal knowledge” basically included penis-in-vagina sex and nothing else. And also failed to include boys (part of the impetus to change it was the Sandusky fiasco). Not that the OP’s included boys either. They finally changed it to > [@](#): > > Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim. After a bunch of protests it was revised last year and became effective this year. It’s still not perfect (it doesn’t include envelopment), but it’s a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/7 "2013-09-06T13:31:24Z")
People need to learn the meaning of or. The law is: If any male person carnally knows a female person, not his wife, against her will by force, OR if any male person over the age of sixteen years carnally knows a female person of previous chaste character, not his wife, under that age OR if any male person over the age of sixteen years carnally knows a female person, not his wife, under the age of ten years, he shall be guilty of a felony, and, upon conviction, shall be punished with confinement in the penitentiary for life, . . . ---
**Author:** ![lawbuff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@lawbuff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawbuff)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/8 "2013-09-06T14:00:41Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I was reviewing old cases and came across this rape law from West Virginia which was only modified in 1978. I can’t imagine how people then thought this was sufficient. > [@](#): > > W.Va. Code 61-2-15 (Repld. 1978)] > If any male person carnally knows a female person, not his wife, against her will by force, or if any male person over the age of sixteen years carnally knows a female person of previous chaste character, not his wife, under that age, or if any male person over the age of sixteen years carnally knows a female person, not his wife, under the age of ten years, he shall be guilty of a felony, and, upon conviction, shall be punished with confinement in the penitentiary for life, . . . That reminds me of this case; 450 U.S. 464 Michael M. v. Superior Court CERTIORARI TO THE SUPREME COURT OF CALIFORNIA Petitioner, then a 17 1/2-year-old male, was charged with violating California’s “statutory rape” law, which defines unlawful sexual intercourse as “an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a female not the wife of the perpetrator, where the female is under the age of 18 years.” Prior to trial, petitioner sought to set aside the information on both state and federal constitutional grounds, asserting that the statute unlawfully discriminated on the basis of gender since men alone were criminally liable thereunder. The trial court and the California Court of Appeal denied relief, and on review the California Supreme Court upheld the statute. Held: The judgment is affirmed. Pp. 468-476; 481-487. In Ohio, if I remember correctly, sexual conduct did not include object penetration, now it does, + rape used to be a 6 years SOL, now it is 20. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/9 "2013-09-06T14:13:52Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Where’d that “under the age of 16” come from? It’s not in the quote. [QUOTE=OP’s quote] if any male person over the age of **sixteen** years carnally knows a female person of previous chaste character, not his wife, **under that age** [/QUOTE] Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/10 "2013-09-06T14:39:16Z")
> [@treis](#): > > People need to learn the meaning of or. The law is: > > If any male person carnally knows a female person, not his wife, against her will by force, > > OR > > if any male person over the age of sixteen years carnally knows a female person of previous chaste character, not his wife, under that age > > OR > > if any male person over the age of sixteen years carnally knows a female person, not his wife, under the age of ten years, > he shall be guilty of a felony, and, upon conviction, shall be punished with confinement in the penitentiary for life, . . . I don’t know who this is aimed at, but I don’t see anyone here who is confused about what “or” means. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/11 "2013-09-06T14:58:17Z")
> [@Crotalus](#): > > Bolding mine. I knew I shouldn’t have bunked off during Reading Comprehension 101. Due apologies. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/12 "2013-09-06T22:53:06Z")
I can’t help but wonder if other laws were on the books that covered the things we don’t like. For example, surely, surely (I hope) you couldn’t hold your wife down and force intercourse on her. Wasn’t that at least an aggravated felony battery? Maybe the whole thing was that they didn’t want to use the term “rape” with a married couple? I dunno. I might be giving too much credit. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/13 "2013-09-06T22:59:51Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I can’t help but wonder if other laws were on the books that covered the things we don’t like. For example, surely, surely (I hope) you couldn’t hold your wife down and force intercourse on her. Wasn’t that at least an aggravated felony battery? > > Maybe the whole thing was that they didn’t want to use the term “rape” with a married couple? I dunno. I might be giving too much credit. There was no such thing as marital rape for the most part in US laws until fairly recently. A woman did not have the right to say no to sex with her husband. ETA: By “fairly recently” I mean that I don’t know if it was illegal ANYWHERE in the US until about 1970 or thereabouts. It was still permissible within the last twenty years or so in some places, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/14 "2013-09-06T23:04:43Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > There was no such thing as marital rape for the most part in US laws until fairly recently. A woman did not have the right to say no to sex with her husband. > > ETA: By “fairly recently” I mean that I don’t know if it was illegal ANYWHERE in the US until about 1970 or thereabouts. It was still permissible within the last twenty years or so in some places, I believe. I realize that in the abstract, but let’s say that you pointed a gun at your wife and demanded sex. Surely, that was a crime. So, let’s step down from that. If you throw her on the bed and force sex, wasn’t it at least battery? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/15 "2013-09-06T23:19:45Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Whatever earlier generations may have thought about the advisability of prosecuting rape within marriage, did West Virginia actually allow anyone to marry an under-10 prior to 1978? I thought about that as well. The old statutes aren’t all online, but the earliest I could find set the age at 16 without parental permission. I suppose that a 2 year old could theoretically have been married, but I have never seen it in my research. My guess is that it was there for the 13 and 14 year olds who go pregnant to “do the right thing.” The insert of “not his wife” language as it pertained to under 10 year olds was probably keeping with the common law definition of rape. I could be very wrong, but I have never seen one incident of a 10 year old being legally married in the history of my state. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/16 "2013-09-06T23:31:13Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I realize that in the abstract, but let’s say that you pointed a gun at your wife and demanded sex. Surely, that was a crime. I invite you to see if you can find men convicted of such lesser offenses. I don’t think you’ll find many if any, but I’d be happy to be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/17 "2013-09-07T00:52:02Z")
One of the ways that this law is clearly out of touch is that it defines rape as something that can only be done by males to females. Men can be raped too, both by females and by other men. Even now, society tends to overlook the reality of male rape survivors. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/18 "2013-09-07T01:05:00Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I can’t help but wonder if other laws were on the books that covered the things we don’t like. For example, surely, surely (I hope) you couldn’t hold your wife down and force intercourse on her. Wasn’t that at least an aggravated felony battery? > [@jtgain](#): > > I realize that in the abstract, but let’s say that you pointed a gun at your wife and demanded sex. Surely, that was a crime. > > So, let’s step down from that. If you throw her on the bed and force sex, wasn’t it at least battery? As \*\*jsgoddess \*\*stated upthread, no, it wasn’t. In fact, many statutes explicitly stated that sexual activity between married people could \*never \*be considered a crime. In the case of forced or coerced sex, the accompanying physical abuse might be treated as a crime, but the sexual component could not. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/19 "2013-09-07T03:52:31Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I realize that in the abstract, but let’s say that you pointed a gun at your wife and demanded sex. Surely, that was a crime. > > So, let’s step down from that. If you throw her on the bed and force sex, wasn’t it at least battery? No, and no. Wives did not have the legal right to refuse to have sex with their husbands. Even if another pregnancy was dangerous or fatal to her (and remember, until very recently birth control wasn’t that effective, and require the co-operation of the man), she could not refuse under any circumstances. She could whine and cry and beg, and sometimes that worked. And sometimes it didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122/20 "2013-09-07T06:05:17Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I can’t help but wonder if other laws were on the books that covered the things we don’t like. For example, surely, surely (I hope) you couldn’t hold your wife down and force intercourse on her. Wasn’t that at least an aggravated felony battery? Oh yes you could… and if she complained, she’d be told to shut up and go be a good wife, and that she must’a done something to deserve being hit. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-laws-and-how-they-have-changed/668122.md?page=2)