Being intoxicated in class is a discipline issue. Tardiness and absenteeism is a discipline issue. Disrespectful behaviour towards faculty is a discipline issue. Rape is not one. Rape is one of the most henious crimes there is. Most if not all disciplinary infractions are things which are not crimes. Universities do not have the right nor the ability to conduct investigations into such things. Its something best left to LEAs and the Courts.
Do you have any (recent, like the last 30 years) cites of sex crime definitions being broadened to include once-legal and commonplace behavior? I’m not disagreeing with you, it’s just that when I’ve encountered this argument before, it got tracked back to a Playboy or Penthouse columnist with a mad-on for Andrea Dworkin or Catherine MacKinnon.
I can actually think of a couple examples, but they’re not very relevant to campus life (Marital rape, workplace harassment, etc.).
I simply don’t believe there is any sort of rape crisis on campuses. I find the so called crises to be similar to the old lie about men are more likely to commit violence against women on Super Bowl Sunday. Remember that nonsense?
The ‘crisis’ is largely made up by feminist activists who are found in much higher proportion on college campuses than in the general public. These activists spread their propaganda with mandatory sessions during orientation. Often, professors are coerced into giving class time to these feminists during Stop Rape week.
There’s obviously no way to prove that rapes are underreported, but I don’t think they are. In fact, I think that false reporting of rape is higher than activists want to let on. some of these are buyer’s remorse and some are vindictive due to breakups or the women wanting something serious and the male only wanting a one night stand or a booty call.
Another problem is that when all you’ve got is a hammer (rape) then everything looks like a nail. Alcohol is far more likely to be the drug of use on Saturday nights rather than roofies. It’s far more likely that two people got drunk at a party and ended up in bed than the evil male slipped something in her drink. It’s quite possible to be drinking heavily and have periods where you don’t remember all the events of the previous night. That’s hardly rape.
It’s not either/or. Rape is a crime and it’s a disciplinary issue.* Both have their own definitions and their own burdens of proof. The justice system deals with the allegation that there’s a rapist out there in society at large. The school has to deal with the allegation that there’s a rapist with a standing invitation to be on the property.
*Cite from just one school, the very first one I looked up (PDF):
Nm
Seriously? Do you know any women? I can think of a handful of unreported rapes in my peer group alone.
Regretted sex does happen, but most people try to forget it it, not drag it in to a public legal battle where they get the fun of reliving it over and over again in front of an audience.
Whether or not a faculty or staff member should be fired or whether a student should be expelled is not a matter for law enforcement or the justice system and is not even a criminal matter. Neither requires nor should it require proof beyond reasonable doubt before a court of law that a crime as defined by the law has been committed. It is always a matter for a university to determine on its own.
If its as one of the recognised collateral consequences of criminal convictions, (loss of employment, professional standing and educational opportunities are one of those), then fine.But, Universities should not usurp the role of criminal courts
My point is that what constitutes disciplinary matters should not overlap with what are criminal matters. The university (within whatever limits placed by applicable laws) is free to conduct its own internal inquiries, with whatever standard of proof it thinks appropriate and to award necessary sanctions. For what are disciplinary matters.
If a student is found murdered in a Dorm and it looks like another student is responible, do you think the university should handle it itself? Do you think its a criminal matter? Hell no. It is very properly a matter for the police.
Whether or not the person should be tried for the crime of murder and sentenced to criminal punishment is a matter for police. Whether that person should remain a student at the university regardless of what the police or prosecutors do is not a matter for police.
There is no usurpation going on here.
Are you under the impression that universities are sentencing people to terms of incarceration?
It is fully within the appropriate role of the university to decide whether to expel a student for sexual misconduct whether or not anyone ever makes a report to the police, whether or not any prosecutor ever files criminal charges, and whether or not there is ever any judgement of guilt.
No one has the right to remain a student at a university just because a court of law has not handed down a guilty verdict of some kind.
Furthermore, it can take years to resolve a serious criminal case and in the meantime all the students involved have graduated. It is appropriate for the university to decide that they don’t want that person on campus pending that process.
It is perfectly appropriate for a university to say “we are expelling you because we have talked to her and you and we think she is telling the truth.” If the student thinks he had been unfairly treated, he can bring a civil action. But the point is that the criminal standard of proof does not apply.
When I was in college , ‘date rape’ was the new mania. I did have two female roommates at that time and we all dreaded the lectures that took over part of class time during Stop Rape week. I can remember one night after sitting through one of those useless date rape lectures, one of my female friends made fun of women alleging date rape. She grabbed a bottle of wine and used it to simulate sex acts while mocking , " Oh, I’m so drunk. Oh no, rapey wapey!!"
That is not data. Neither are even sven’s anecdotes, but at least hers are closer.
So dalej42 has/had female friends who also misunderstand the situation with regard to reported vs unreported rapes. Just as he does. I personally was raped in college and did not report it. Did my very best to pretend it never happened. I guess for some folks the “useless date rape lectures” were really useless. Hopefully not for everyone. I don’t agree with AK84 that rape is one of the most heinous crimes there is, but it’s pretty nasty. People who want to tell you that it wasn’t really rape because you went on a date with the guy or you wore a low cut dress: that’s heinous.
I completely agree, but many American Universities have a Campus Police, which is part of the university but has jurisdiction on campus for those things the township’s police would handle outside of campus. Some of them even have SWAT teams, apparently :eek:
There’s a huge problem with this idea. How can you know how many rapes go unreported if, y’know, they haven’t been reported? Yes, I understand a little of the psychology of not reporting - but I am at a loss to understand how one could accurately measure it without getting reports from people who haven’t reported. I seriously doubt that you can just walk on to a college campus, sniff the air, and conclude, “There’s a rapin’ goin’ on. <sniff>. Five of them! And one of them is underage!”
The problem is with the idea that you can say there are x rapes or x percent go unreported. No one knows. You are right; you can’t accurately measure any of it. I never said I knew how many rapes go unreported. I don’t. Just like you don’t know how many there are.
“Unreported” means “unreported to law enforcement,” not “told to nobody, ever.” Surveys exist, and the error rates on various types of surveys are well known.
Rapes may also be reported to organizations other than law enforcement. For example, as a Peace Corps volunteer, my cohort experienced crime, including rapes. These were generally not reported to law enforcement as rape trials in the country involved were deeply humiliating and highly unlikely to lead to any justice. But they were reported to Peace Corps, either directly or through a completely anonymous survey on crime administered to every volunteer at the end of their service.
So we’re talking about 2 different population groups. I easily believe rape is underreported in developing countries served by the Peace Corps. I don’t believe it is underreported on college campuses in the US or UK
Do you think rape doesn’t happen on college campuses, or do you think they all get reported?
You are free to think whatever you want, but what you are claiming really doesn’t mesh with reality. I promise you that every adult woman you see knows someone who was the victim of sexual assault. It’s not uncommon, it’s just not. It’s like telling me there aren’t a lot of people on the subway in New York. Maybe it’s true. I don’t live there maybe it’s not actually common. But given the sheer number of New Yorkers I know that have brought up riding the subway at some point or another, I really doubt it.
On university campuses where large percentages of the students live on campus or use the campus health services some interesting stats can be compiled over the number of rapes reported on campus and the number of rapes that campus health services believe should have been reported.
Precisely. Let us put it in perspective. A student Googles, cuts, and pastes his term paper. No one would argue that a University does not have the duty to investigate or the right to remove him from the University community.
So, if a student sexually assaults another student, you really want to argue that the University should have LESS discretion in determining whether the student remains a part of the University community?
Again, as was stated before, the problem has been colleges covering up assaults, routing victims into endless reporting loops, and preventing conventional law enforcement from acting on information. The latest surge in federal activity and oversight is a direct response to this. If we had been doing it right all along, we wouldn’t have to make corrections now. And by ‘we’ I mean the industry of higher education.