# Rape, Republicans, and Coercian
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [October 18, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538 "2013-10-18T01:09:50Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/1 "2013-10-18T01:09:50Z")
In [another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16767131), people are arguing that forcing others to have trans-vaginal ultrasounds in order to receive abortions isn’t rape. I think this is bullshit.
First, these trans-vaginal ultrasounds are unnecessary, and serve no medical purpose. Often, the doctor is forced to outright lie to the patient by the republican lawmakers who pass these dumb laws. These laws have the goal of humiliating women and trying to ‘trick’ them into not getting an abortion by lying to them, or through shame. They are designed to exert power over others.
The first argument made was “it’s not really violent rape, so you can’t call it rape”. This “not a legitimate rape” bs I’ll dismiss out of hand. Not all rapes are violent.
The argument that keeps being made is - “no woman is being FORCED to do this”. This is extremely dangerous of an argument to make, and is not true. If a person wants an abortion, under this law, they are forced to do it. Pregnencies CAN be life threatening, or carry risk of medical complications or death. In my mind, forcing a person to be vaginally probed (unnecessarily, for no medical reason) in order to avoid medical complications or death is no different from physically threatening them to coerce them.
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### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/2 "2013-10-18T01:17:10Z")
> [@Karrius](#):
>
> Often, the doctor is forced to outright lie to the patient by the republican lawmakers who pass these dumb laws.
In those cases, at least, there is simply no argument – “rape by deception” is long-settled law.
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/3 "2013-10-18T01:19:47Z")
> [@Karrius](#):
>
> The first argument made was “it’s not really violent rape, so you can’t call it rape”. This “not a legitimate rape” bs I’ll dismiss out of hand. Not all rapes are violent.
No one said that.
I would suggest that this something that is totally unproductive to argue about. Rape is a legal term of art; something that’s codified as not only not illegal, but required by law, is by definition not rape. What you’re really arguing is “this is tantamount to rape,” while the people you’re arguing with are saying “it’s awful and invasive but not literally rape.”
You aren’t even disagreeing, except in the absoluteness of your language.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/4 "2013-10-18T01:30:02Z")
> [@Karrius](#):
>
> First, these trans-vaginal ultrasounds are unnecessary, and serve no medical purpose.
Agreed.
> [@](#):
>
> Often, the doctor is forced to outright lie to the patient by the republican lawmakers who pass these dumb laws.
Agreed on all points.
> [@](#):
>
> These laws have the goal of humiliating women and trying to ‘trick’ them into not getting an abortion by lying to them, or through shame.
Agreed.
> [@](#):
>
> They are designed to exert power over others.
Agreed.
> [@](#):
>
> The first argument made was “it’s not really violent rape, so you can’t call it rape”.
Absolutely wrong. No one made anything even close to that argument in the other thread.
> [@](#):
>
> The argument that keeps being made is - “no woman is being FORCED to do this”. This is extremely dangerous of an argument to make, and is not true. If a person wants an abortion, under this law, they are forced to do it. Pregnencies CAN be life threatening, or carry risk of medical complications or death. In my mind, forcing a person to be vaginally probed (unnecessarily, for no medical reason) in order to avoid medical complications or death is no different from physically threatening them to coerce them.
Let me offer you a few scenarios.
1. A woman goes to her doctor. She says, “I’m having stomach cramps, but it’s not my period.” He says, "Okay. I’m going to schedule for a vaginal ultrasound, and we’ll see what’s going on.
2. A woman goes to her doctor. She says, “I’m pregnant, and I want an abortion.” He says, “Okay. I’m going to schedule you for a vaginal ultrasound, and then we’ll see about terminating your pregnancy.”
3. A woman goes to her doctor. He says, “Your medical records contain proof that you’ve cheated on your husband. If you don’t have sex with me right now, I’m going to mail them to him.”
Do you think the woman in scenario 2 is significantly more traumatized than the woman in scenario 1? Do you think she is traumatized to anywhere near the degree of the woman in scenario 3?
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/5 "2013-10-18T01:32:59Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> Rape is a legal term of art; something that’s codified as not only not illegal, but required by law, is by definition not rape.
:rolleyes: So if some dictatorship goes to the trouble of doing the paperwork before handing off female slaves to its soldiers as “comfort women”, it’s not rape when the soldiers force themselves on the slaves?
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/6 "2013-10-18T01:40:58Z")
I don’t know, turn the page of whatever fucked up sci-fi novel you live in and find out.
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### Author:  [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/7 "2013-10-18T01:42:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> :rolleyes: So if some dictatorship goes to the trouble of doing the paperwork before handing off female slaves to its soldiers as “comfort women”, it’s not rape when the soldiers force themselves on the slaves?
I can’t believe people are defending this guy.
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### Author:  [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/8 "2013-10-18T01:45:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> :rolleyes: So if some dictatorship goes to the trouble of doing the paperwork before handing off female slaves to its soldiers as “comfort women”, it’s not rape when the soldiers force themselves on the slaves?
You really are a drooling moron, aren’t you. How do you manage to feed yourself, every day?
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/9 "2013-10-18T01:48:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> So if some dictatorship goes to the trouble of doing the paperwork before handing off female slaves to its soldiers as “comfort women”, it’s not rape when the soldiers force themselves on the slaves?
Another idiotic comparison. A legal and medically legitimate gynecological procedure, even if medically unnecessary in a certain situation where it’s legally mandated for purposes of political obstructionism and oppression, is simply not on the same footing as a tyranny giving certain subjects _carte blanche_ to commit actual rape.
Man, I haven’t heard this kind of intemperate and hysterical silliness since some of the old-timer board libertarians used to fume that taxation was theft and speed-limit laws were slavery.
Folks, mandatory vaginal ultrasound laws are bad enough on their own merits to justify strenuously opposing them on those grounds alone. By all means, go ahead and Pit the hell out of such outrageous abuses of our healthcare and legal systems.
But we don’t have to pretend that such procedures are literally the same as rape in order to be against them. As I said, that gross distortion of the facts is an insulting trivialization of the suffering of anyone who’s ever experienced actual rape.
Quit this exaggerated and melodramatic shit-stirring. You’re not being pro-woman, you’re just being anti-Republican.
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### Author:  [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/10 "2013-10-18T02:04:05Z")
This is the equivalent of the GOP demanding a prostate exam before you can get Viagra.
You don’t need Viagra. It’s elective. Drop trou and turn around.
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### Author:  [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/11 "2013-10-18T02:04:21Z")
The only idiots are the people who think there’s nothing wrong with saying “it’s not rape if it’s legal!”. Keep in mind women could be raped by their husbands and the law didn’t care until very recently. I still consider that rape.
> [@](#):
>
> Do you think the woman in scenario 2 is significantly more traumatized than the woman in scenario 1? Do you think she is traumatized to anywhere near the degree of the woman in scenario 3?
I think that the procedure where a woman is forced into an unnecessary medical procedure and is lied to in an attempt to humiliate her and make her feel guilt is traumatizing, based on the word of others. I do not know how traumatizing it is in particular. I do think being lectured about how you’re an awful, awful baby killer by someone who’s supposed to be helping you can be traumatizing, and I take the word of those who have FELT these things on it.
> [@](#):
>
> Another idiotic comparison. A legal and medically legitimate gynecological procedure, even if medically unnecessary in a certain situation where it’s legally mandated for purposes of political obstructionism and oppression, is simply not on the same footing as a tyranny giving certain subjects carte blanche to commit actual rape.
What the fuck is with you people screaming about them having to be equal? “It wasn’t equally traumatizing as a violent rape, so it wasn’t rape”, and now this, which is missing the point by a fucking mile.
The question basically was - as long as it’s legal, do you think it can never be rape? Because there have been LOTS of “legal rapes” throughout history. So trying to hide behind “Oh, it’s legal” and then running and screaming about false comparisons is simply stupid.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/12 "2013-10-18T02:09:35Z")
> [@Karrius](#):
>
> The only idiots are the people who think there’s nothing wrong with saying “it’s not rape if it’s legal!”.
No one is saying that, either.
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### Author:  [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/13 "2013-10-18T02:10:02Z")
The more interesting question is the blackmail one -
Is that rape?
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/14 "2013-10-18T02:13:27Z")
> [@Karrius](#):
>
> The only idiots are the people who think there’s nothing wrong with saying “it’s not rape if it’s legal!”. Keep in mind women could be raped by their husbands and the law didn’t care until very recently. I still consider that rape.
Oh, for Christ’s sake. Nobody’s saying “it’s not rape if it’s legal!” What we’re saying is “it’s not rape if it’s _consensual_”. Because it isn’t.
> [@Karrius](#):
>
> I think that the procedure where a woman is forced into an unnecessary medical procedure and is lied to in an attempt to humiliate her and make her feel guilt is traumatizing, based on the word of others. I do not know how traumatizing it is in particular. I do think being lectured about how you’re an awful, awful baby killer by someone who’s supposed to be helping you can be traumatizing, and I take the word of those who have FELT these things on it.
I completely agree with you, which is one reason I’m adamantly opposed to laws requiring unnecessary vaginal ultrasounds as a prerequisite to abortion.
But something can be bad, wrong, oppressive, invasive, and traumatizing _ **AND STILL NOT BE ACTUAL RAPE** _.
> [@Karrius](#):
>
> The question basically was - as long as it’s legal, do you think it can never be rape?
And the answer is that legality _in and of itself_ is not the issue here, as you should have realized if you were actually paying attention to the discussion.
The point is that if it’s legal **and consensual** , it cannot be rape. Doesn’t mean it can’t still be bad and wrong and oppressive and unfair. But words mean something, and the word “rape” means that the rape victim has not consented to the act. Consequently, a medical procedure that a patient legally and knowingly **consents to** cannot be rape.
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### Author:  [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/15 "2013-10-18T02:15:06Z")
You really are tilting at windmills here, **Karrius**. Everybody knows you still consider it rape. You keep saying it. The distinction is that you’re acting like you’re saying “this actually is literal rape” when what you mean is “this is bad for the same reasons rape is bad.”
Rape is invasive and traumatizing and is a bad thing, and we’re against it. Mandatory ultrasounds are invasive and I presume can be traumatizing and they’re bad and I’m against them. But they aren’t rape. You’re the one who is creating the equivalence you’re complaining about - nobody else has said it isn’t bad enough if it isn’t rape.
> [@](#):
>
> The more interesting question is the blackmail one -
>
> Is that rape?
Depends where you are. Most places, if it’s literal blackmail, no. In my jurisdiction it’s only rape if the threat is of force, not embarrassment or monetary loss or whatever.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/16 "2013-10-18T02:17:32Z")
> [@bengangmo](#):
>
> The more interesting question is the blackmail one -
>
> Is that rape?
[Sex by extortion](http://lawyersusaonline.com/benchmarks/2011/10/12/is-sex-by-extortion-%E2%80%98rape%E2%80%99/):
> [@](#):
>
> Is sex by blackmail ‘rape’?
>
> A Kansas woman testified that the only reason she agreed to have sex with her ex-husband was to prevent his disclosure of an embarrassing extramarital affair. Did the ex-husband commit rape?
>
> Some states have amended rape statutes to encompass sex by extortion. Kansas is not one of those states. So the question boiled down to whether prosecutors could show that the ex-husband overcame his victim by “force or fear.” […]
>
> A jury found Brooks guilty of those charges and he was sentenced to 155 months in prison on the rape conviction, 12 months in prison on each blackmail conviction, and 12 months in the county jail on the breach of privacy conviction.
>
> The rape conviction was the big ticket item, so naturally it was the focus of Brooks’ appeal.
>
> Friday, the Kansas Court of Appeals concluded that, no matter how evil, Brooks’ actions did not fit within the state’s definition of a rape offense. Specifically, the court determined that the fear engendered by Brooks’ threatened disclosure of an embarrassing affair was not of a kind that would support a finding that he overcame J.P. by “force or fear” within the meaning of the state’s rape law.
It seems to be a debatable area and I gather that the legal status of it may vary from state to state.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/17 "2013-10-18T02:22:50Z")
A question for those that are arguing that this law is rape:
Who do you think should go to jail for it?
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### Author:  [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/18 "2013-10-18T02:25:16Z")
Rape is an emotionally charged word, in Australia we would call this procedure sexual assault. See same but different and removes the emotion of the rape word, rape should be reserved for penetration.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/19 "2013-10-18T02:26:32Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> I don’t know, turn the page of whatever fucked up sci-fi novel you live in and find out.
“Comfort women” is from World War II, not sci-fi. And it’s exactly the sort of thing your logic would declare to be “not rape”.
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> The point is that if it’s legal **and consensual** , it cannot be rape.
Doing something under coercion is not consensual.
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Oh, for Christ’s sake. Nobody’s saying “it’s not rape if it’s legal!”
Wrong.
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> Rape is a legal term of art; something that’s codified as not only not illegal, but required by law, is by definition not rape.
> [@Miller](#):
>
> A question for those that are arguing that this law is rape:
>
> Who do you think should go to jail for it?
Any doctor who performs it, along with losing their license. As well as the politicians who passed the law.
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### Author:  [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)
#### Post date: [October 18, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/20 "2013-10-18T02:33:24Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> No one is saying that, either.
> [@Kimstu](#):
>
> Oh, for Christ’s sake. Nobody’s saying “it’s not rape if it’s legal!” What we’re saying is “it’s not rape if it’s _consensual_”. Because it isn’t.
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#):
>
> Rape is a legal term of art; something that’s codified as not only not illegal, but required by law, is by definition not rape.
I thought the message board’s slogan was “Fighting Ignorance”, not “Fighting Literacy”.
> [@Miller](#):
>
> A question for those that are arguing that this law is rape:
>
> Who do you think should go to jail for it?
In a just world, the Republicans who are making it law. The doctors, essentially, don’t have a choice. I don’t think that any doctor that breaks such a law should be punished, however.
I do not think there is any chance of that, or it is in any way viable.
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