# Rape, Republicans, and Coercian **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 18, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538 "2013-10-18T01:09:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/21 "2013-10-18T02:33:25Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Doing something under coercion is not consensual. This only demonstrates once again that you don’t understand what “coercion” means. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/22 "2013-10-18T02:36:28Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > This only demonstrates once again that you don’t understand what “coercion” means. Again - at what point does it become coercion? If the abortion is a _medical necessity_, “receive this or die”, does it become coercion? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/23 "2013-10-18T02:36:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Any doctor who performs it, along with losing their license. As well as the politicians who passed the law. Cool, thanks. Just wanted to get you on record as supporting the arrest of your political opponents, for the next time I want to point out what gutless little Nazi you are at heart. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/24 "2013-10-18T02:39:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Cool, thanks. Just wanted to get you on record as supporting the arrest of your political opponents, for the next time I want to point out what gutless little Nazi you are at heart. You are seriously fucking sickening. Even if you don’t call it rape, these people are going “If you don’t get sexually assaulted, humiliated, and scolded, we’re allowed to withhold medical treatment, including life-saving medical treatment.” It’s not as if people haven’t died from not receiving abortions before. It’s not as if the republicans aren’t outright admitting the point of what they’re doing is for power and humiliating. But no - being angry at men who are subjugating people like this is _just like_ committing genocide. Yep, just like it. Considering how many people were screaming about DT’s false equivalency in this thread, maybe you useless fucking hypocrites might want to try having a shred of honesty and decency on your own. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/25 "2013-10-18T02:40:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Just wanted to get you on record as supporting the arrest of your political opponents, for the next time I want to point out what gutless little Nazi you are at heart. Engaging in sexual assault or imposing it by law goes rather farther than being a political opponent of someone. It’s the kind of thing that gets labeled a war crime if you do it to citizens of another country. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/26 "2013-10-18T02:46:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Cool, thanks. Just wanted to get you on record as supporting the arrest of your political opponents, for the next time I want to point out what gutless little Nazi you are at heart. That’s a bit much, don’t you think? Remember, this is the GOP passing a specifically unnecessary insertion into a woman based on nothing more than wanting to humiliate women who get an abortion. It may not be rape, but it certainly isn’t decent. In my example above, a prostate exam for Viagra, do you think that would creep up to the line of some kind of sexual assault? What about if it were a breast exam in order to get your car registered? There are any number of medical procedures that, out of their normal context would be a huge violation. The very fact that this is unnecessary, and penetrative will squick some people out more than others. And while it is likely not legal to punish the GOP halfwits that pushed such laws through, it certainly would be closer to justice. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/27 "2013-10-18T02:47:33Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > I thought the message board’s slogan was “Fighting Ignorance”, not “Fighting Literacy”. You’re not really in any position to criticize anybody else for overlooking details of another poster’s argument, though, considering how egregiously you’ve been misunderstanding them. Anyway, do you now understand that mandatory vaginal ultrasounds not only do not meet any current legal definition of rape but _cannot_ be rape since they cannot be performed without the patient’s consent? [QUOTE=Karrius] The Republicans who are making it law. The doctors, essentially, don’t have a choice. I don’t think that any doctor that breaks such a law should be punished, however. [/QUOTE] I have to admit I’d love to hear you trying to explain to a court why a legislator who passed a law requiring a medical procedure that was knowingly consented to by a woman whom the legislator had never even seen should be considered guilty of raping her. For an encore, you can explain why the CEO of a credit card company that charges unfairly high interest rates should be convicted on a charge of breaking and entering with intent to commit burglary. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/28 "2013-10-18T02:48:04Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > You are seriously fucking sickening. Even if you don’t call it rape, these people are going “If you don’t get sexually assaulted, humiliated, and scolded, we’re allowed to withhold medical treatment, including life-saving medical treatment.” What’s this “even if” shit? You started a whole new thread just to insult people who only disagreed with you about that one thing. > [@](#): > > useless fucking hypocrites Useless to whom? What have you ever done about any of this? ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/29 "2013-10-18T02:49:29Z")
Kimstu, I’d love for you to explain how if a woman needs a life-saving medical procedure, and she can’t get it unless the doctor does something to her against her will that is unnecessary for the procedure, she isn’t being “coerced” into doing that thing. Please, explain it to me. Because I really do see that as being coercion, and don’t understand how it isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/30 "2013-10-18T02:51:32Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Cool, thanks. Just wanted to get you on record as supporting the arrest of your political opponents, for the next time I want to point out what gutless little Nazi you are at heart. Not quite. You just generalized improperly. He wants people arrested who voted for this particular law, not just “his political opponents.” This view, itself, is wrong (the Constitution protects lawmakers for this reason.) But you did err in making it seem as if he was advocating a legal ban on political dissent. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/31 "2013-10-18T02:55:39Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Again - at what point does it become coercion? If the abortion is a _medical necessity_, “receive this or die”, does it become coercion? Nope. Like I said, you don’t seem to understand the difference between “death threat” and “life-threatening”. If you’re going to die unless you have, say, a cardiac operation, and you’re required to get some specified additional medical procedure before they’ll operate on you, the fact that you will die without the operation doesn’t negate the fact that you’ve _knowingly consented_ to the additional procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/32 "2013-10-18T02:57:52Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > But no - being angry at men who are subjugating people like this is _just like_ committing genocide. Yep, just like it. It’s fuck lot closer to it than vaginal ultrasounds are to rape, shitwit. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/33 "2013-10-18T02:59:57Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Kimstu, I’d love for you to explain how if a woman needs a life-saving medical procedure, and she can’t get it unless the doctor does something to her against her will that is unnecessary for the procedure, she isn’t being “coerced” into doing that thing. See above. The requirement is already part of the procedure. Nobody is taking advantage of your endangered condition to impose the requirement on you. As I said, your having a life-threatening condition is not the same thing as somebody else threatening your life. ---
**Author:** ![Karrius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71c47a/32.png) [@Karrius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karrius)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/34 "2013-10-18T03:00:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s fuck lot closer to it than vaginal ultrasounds are to rape, shitwit. Yes, I can see how shoving something into a woman’s vagina for the express stated purpose to humiliate her and exert power over her isn’t at all like rape, but thinking that people who do so would be jailed in a just world is just like killing tens of millions of people. Wait no I can’t because I’m not out of my fucking mind. > [@](#): > > See above. The requirement is already part of the procedure. Nobody is taking advantage of your endangered condition to impose the requirement on you. This is where I disagree. Republicans _are_ taking advantage of an endangered condition to impose this requirement on people who want to abort. That’s the entire point of these laws. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/35 "2013-10-18T03:00:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s fuck lot closer to it than vaginal ultrasounds are to rape, shitwit. \*Unnecessary \*vaginal utrasounds. Are you having a bad day, you’re normally not this shrill? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/36 "2013-10-18T03:03:59Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > Yes, I can see how shoving something into a woman’s vagina for the express stated purpose to humiliate her and exert power over her isn’t at all like rape, but thinking that people who do so would be jailed in a just world is just like killing tens of millions of people. Right. Because genocide is clearly the axis of comparison I was aiming for, there. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/37 "2013-10-18T03:04:43Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > \*Unnecessary \*vaginal utrasounds. Are you having a bad day, you’re normally not this shrill? Worried that I’m infringing on your territory? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/38 "2013-10-18T03:16:47Z")
> [@Karrius](#): > > This is where I disagree. Republicans _are_ taking advantage of an endangered condition to impose this requirement on people who want to abort. If “endangered condition” means anything you happen to want it to mean at any particular moment, I guess so. If words have meanings, though, then no. These laws, where they exist, apply to all abortions, not just to ones where the patient will die if she doesn’t get an abortion. We are all in agreement that these laws are bad. They’re invasive, unnecessary, costly, and oppressive in their intent. But they do not involve anybody actually raping anybody, and you don’t help the cause of intelligent opposition to mandated vaginal ultrasounds by making these overwrought analogies. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/39 "2013-10-18T03:20:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Worried that I’m infringing on your territory? I’m more acerbic than shrill. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538/40 "2013-10-18T03:22:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Let me offer you a few scenarios. > > 1. A woman goes to her doctor. She says, “I’m having stomach cramps, but it’s not my period.” He says, "Okay. I’m going to schedule for a vaginal ultrasound, and we’ll see what’s going on. “First, doctor, would you please tell me more about that procedure, why it’s medically necessary and what other options for testing and treatment I have?” > [@](#): > > 1. A woman goes to her doctor. She says, “I’m pregnant, and I want an abortion.” He says, “Okay. I’m going to schedule you for a vaginal ultrasound, and then we’ll see about terminating your pregnancy.” “First, doctor, would you please tell me more about that procedure, why it’s medically necessary and what other options for testing and treatment I have?” > [@](#): > > Do you think the woman in scenario 2 is significantly more traumatized than the woman in scenario 1? I would be. Scenario 2 has absolutely zero medical indication or necessity, and anyone who told me it does is lying to me. (Neither really does Scenario 1, but you’re not, I presume, an OB/GYN, so I’ll pretend it does to let you make the point.) I find it traumatic when doctors lie to me, and I really don’t like it when they place things inside my body that don’t need to be there. But yes, of course Scenario 3 would be more traumatic yet. “Real rapes” come in all levels of traumatic, too. That doesn’t mean a gritting your teeth to get it over with spousal rape is okay, it just means it’s potentially less traumatic than a stranger beating you with a hammer in the alley and raping you. > [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > You really are tilting at windmills here, **Karrius**. Everybody knows you still consider it rape. You keep saying it. The distinction is that you’re acting like you’re saying "this actually is literal I think semantically, legally, it could indeed be literal sexual assault, if not for the “none of the above shall apply to medical professionals…” verbage they like to fill statues with. Illinois defines: > [@](#): > > Sec. 11-1.20. Criminal Sexual Assault. > (a) A person commits criminal sexual assault if that person commits an act of sexual penetration and: > (1) uses force or threat of force; > (2) knows that the victim is unable to understand the nature of the act or is unable to give knowing consent; > [@](#): > > “Sexual penetration” means any contact, however slight, between the sex organ or anus of one person and an object or the sex organ, mouth, or anus of another person, or any intrusion, however slight, of any part of the body of one person or of any animal or object into the sex organ or anus of another person, including, but not limited to, cunnilingus, fellatio, or anal penetration. Evidence of emission of semen is not required to prove sexual penetration. If the physician must lie to the patient to obtain consent (and stating that a transvaginal ultrasound is neccesary before a routine abortion is a lie), then I don’t see “knowing consent” being present. A transvaginal ultrasound wand is an “object” being intrusively placed “into the sex organ…of another person”. I think in a practical sense, it’s not widely considered rape because the technician performing it isn’t getting sexual or power pleasure from it, and we have an unspoken notion that rape is about sex and/or power. > [@Miller](#): > > A question for those that are arguing that this law is rape: > > Who do you think should go to jail for it? Literally? No one. It should be brought as a test case against whomever it can be, and it should be overturned in court on grounds of gross stupidity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-republicans-and-coercian/671538.md?page=3)