# Rape should be legal, as long as it's not "violent" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 6, 2019, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449 "2019-12-06T02:29:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/81 "2019-12-10T20:25:38Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I am aware this is the BBQ Pit. Are you? because you seem to have it mixed up with GD. > [@](#): > > But I don’t feel the need to swear at people in frustration. I don’t need to, nor am I frustrated. I _want_ to. > [@](#): > > I’m capable of winning an argument I’ve seen exactly zero evidence of that here. > [@](#): > > You may not understand that I won this round. You’re confident, I’ll give you that. Still idiotically wrong, but, you know, at least you were scrappy about it. > [@](#): > > But the evidence is there. You mean the quote that doesn’t remotely say what you said it does? \*That \*“evidence”? Suuuure it is, lil’ buddy. Sure it is. Sure, bud, “everyone else” believes you. It’s not just such obvious fucknuts as \*\*Iso \*\*and **UM**. It’s “everyone else”. Uh-huh. Fuck off. ---
**Author:** ![Isosleepy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/isosleepy/32/479_2.png) [@Isosleepy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isosleepy)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/82 "2019-12-10T20:57:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Fuck off. I could throw in another “No, U” - but I am tired of descending to your intellectual level of discourse. So I guess in that sense, you win. But the rest of us all lose. Telling those you interact with to fuck off all the time makes it hard to focus on, or even give much of a shit about, whatever the fuck point you are trying to make. I guess it saves time: seeing the “fuck off” at the end of yet another post of yours makes it clear it cannot possibly be of any value, and saves us the effort of wading through whatever other tedious shit you decide to vomit up. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/83 "2019-12-10T21:03:43Z")
> [@Isosleepy](#): > > Telling those you interact with to fuck off all the time Not \*all \*the time. Only to tedious fucks. Pedants, racists and idiots. Idiots like you, apparently. You know the drill… ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/84 "2019-12-10T21:15:16Z")
Could you assholes please knock off your hijack? ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/85 "2019-12-10T22:17:22Z")
Aw yeah! WOOOOOT! [Daniel Shravan’s mother says she is ashamed of her son’s comments, he should apologise to all women with folded hands](https://www.opindia.com/2019/12/daniel-shravan-social-media-rape-murder-women-condoms-hyderabad-mother-family/) Way to go, Mrs. Sharan! ---
**Author:** ![Guest-starring\_Id](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guest-starring_id/32/21736_2.png) [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/86 "2019-12-10T22:24:51Z")
I’m good at spelling names. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2019, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/87 "2019-12-10T23:30:08Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > Aw yeah! WOOOOOT! > > [Daniel Shravan’s mother says she is ashamed of her son’s comments, he should apologise to all women with folded hands](https://www.opindia.com/2019/12/daniel-shravan-social-media-rape-murder-women-condoms-hyderabad-mother-family/) > > Way to go, Mrs. Sharan! Key excerpt: > [@](#): > > It is notable here that after his comments created a massive controversy and social media users started demanding action on Shravan, he had deleted the comments and had shared a statement that the statements were not his opinion but rather a villain’s dialogues from one of his upcoming projects. Riiiiiiiiight ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/88 "2019-12-11T01:56:31Z")
> [@Guest-starring\_Id](#): > > Aw yeah! WOOOOOT! > > [Daniel Shravan’s mother says she is ashamed of her son’s comments, he should apologise to all women with folded hands](https://www.opindia.com/2019/12/daniel-shravan-social-media-rape-murder-women-condoms-hyderabad-mother-family/) > > Way to go, Mrs. Sharan! You can practically hear her yelling at him from the top of the basement stairs to get off the computer already. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/89 "2019-12-11T02:17:48Z")
> [@](#): > > It is notable here that after his comments created a massive controversy and social media users started demanding action on Shravan, he had deleted the comments and had shared a statement that the statements were not his opinion but rather a villain’s dialogues from one of his upcoming projects. If you had told me a year ago that the stupidest excuse I would hear in 2019 would come from somebody other than Donald Trump, I wouldn’t have believed you. But here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/90 "2019-12-11T03:00:34Z")
And I wonder exactly when Shravan began his “upcoming project”. (Actually, I don’t wonder even a teeny weeny itsy bit at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/91 "2019-12-11T05:38:45Z")
The classic: “it wasn’t ME saying that, it was for a movie/play/book I was writing!” > [@margin](#): > > Aside from the fact that it would require the woman \* to be raped\* and considering that society hasn’t changed enough at all, do you really think any woman would be believed? There’s also the danger of an enraged, injured rapist----and his friends. > > Here’s a clear-cut case where a man attacked a woman and SHE got 20 years for firing a warning shot----in the state where George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin in cold blood and claimed self defense. [Marissa Alexander case - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marissa_Alexander_case) > > Although I’m sure our brave Repubs will try and nitpick it to death. > > [Roosh V - RationalWiki](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Roosh_V) > > Another pro-rape dude. I imagine you could also injure yourself with something like that, if you’re not careful. That’s what I would be concerned with the most. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/92 "2019-12-11T05:42:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I am aware this is the BBQ Pit. But I don’t feel the need to swear at people in frustration. I’m capable of winning an argument and showing them to be fools, which is much better. > > You may not understand that I won this round. But the evidence is there and everyone else can see it. Not for me. Your argument comes off as needless nitpicking of the guy who is angry about rape and the attitudes around it. He’s ultimately right–those who believe in sexual entitlement ultimately support rape, whether that is intentional or not. Both are about removing consent–saying someone shoild be required to consent is effectively removing consent. And sex without full, enthusiatic consent is rape. (See my previous post for the full argument.) He’s also right that sexual entitlement and approving of rape are common, because rape and incels are common. Common doesn’t mean majority. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/93 "2019-12-11T07:57:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Not for me. Your argument comes off as needless nitpicking of the guy who is angry about rape and the attitudes around it. He’s ultimately right–those who believe in sexual entitlement ultimately support rape, whether that is intentional or not. Both are about removing consent–saying someone shoild be required to consent is effectively removing consent. And sex without full, enthusiatic consent is rape. (See my previous post for the full argument.) > > He’s also right that sexual entitlement and approving of rape are common, because rape and incels are common. Common doesn’t mean majority. I still disagree (although I appreciate being able to discuss the issue without being repeatedly sworn at). I feel that both ideas are wrong - but I see them as distinct. Incels and other people who believe in sexual entitlement have the mistaken idea that women are obligated to have sex in certain situations. For example, if they go on a date with a man who spends money on the date or if they dress in a manner that a man finds revealing or if they engage in flirtation. This is wrong; a woman (or a man for that matter) has the right to behave any way they want without feeling obligated to agree to sex as a consequence. But in the end, these sexual entitlement people still recognize some limited form of consent. They feel a woman still has the right to refuse to have sex. They just feel that the woman must exercise that right by not entering into situations which create the entitlement. Their belief system can be summed up as _“She shouldn’t lead me on if she’s not going to follow through with it.”_ Rape advocates like Daniel Shravan go far past this. They feel that a man has a right to have sex with any woman he wants without the woman having any say in the matter. They see women as having no agency at all. Their belief system can be summed up as _“It doesn’t matter whether she leads me on or not. I’ll have sex whenever I want it.”_ Both belief systems are bad. But I think it’s clear the latter is substantially worse. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/94 "2019-12-11T12:25:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But in the end, these sexual entitlement people still recognize some limited form of consent. They feel a woman still has the right to refuse to have sex. They just feel that the woman must exercise that right by not entering into situations which create the entitlement. Their belief system can be summed up as _“She shouldn’t lead me on if she’s not going to follow through with it.”_ The flaw in this argument lies in what this group thinks constitutes “leading me on.” I think you’ll find the definition distressingly broad. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/95 "2019-12-11T12:52:20Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They feel a woman still has the right to refuse to have sex You clearly haven’t heard what incels really think, then. There was _lots_ of rape advocacy in their (now mercifully deleted) subreddits,[/r/incels/](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities#Incels)and /r/braincels/. They, themselves, see no difference between “entitled to sex” and “entitled to rape”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/96 "2019-12-11T13:20:58Z")
Incels believe that women exercise their sexual choices unjustly and irrationally. They want to eliminate men’s ability to withhold their consent based on their own preferences. They believe that women that meet their personal preferences owe them sex. There’s little difference between that and belief in entitlement to rape. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/97 "2019-12-11T13:40:45Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > They want to eliminate men’s ability to withhold their consent based on their own preferences. I think you mean “women’s ability” there, no? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/98 "2019-12-11T13:41:50Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > They feel a woman still has the right to refuse to have sex. They just feel that the woman must exercise that right by not entering into situations which create the entitlement. Their belief system can be summed up as _“She shouldn’t lead me on if she’s not going to follow through with it.”_ > > Rape advocates like Daniel Shravan go far past this. They feel that a man has a right to have sex with any woman he wants without the woman having any say in the matter. They see women as having no agency at all. Their belief system can be summed up as _“It doesn’t matter whether she leads me on or not. I’ll have sex whenever I want it.”_ Problem is that the step from one to the other is too easy in practice. If the valid refusal needs to happens \*before \*the “situation” arises, then what makes you have to listen for it \*after \*you’re in the situation. The position Shravan expresses (and he’s just a current face to it) is especially offensive due to its assumption of the \*inevitability \*of rape, as some sort of incidental hazard like carpal tunnel syndrome or sunburn or chipping a tooth on an ice cube. And oh, yeah: “it’s the voice of my character” COME ON!!! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2019, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449/99 "2019-12-11T14:15:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I think you mean “women’s ability” there, no? Yea, I meant “women.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-should-be-legal-as-long-as-its-not-violent/844449.md?page=4)