# Rape victim arrested, refused morning-after pill **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 31, 2007, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261 "2007-01-31T13:53:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/101 "2007-02-01T22:16:44Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] Yes, I am making broad statements. That is because policy varies so widely, it is almost impossible to make a definitive statement about that jail without actually reading their policy manual. [/quote] And yet that doesn’t stop you from making very specific statements as to what “is” done or must be done or should be done, while simultaneously admitting that in reality you don’t know what the hell the policies are in this case, and you don’t know what the hell the procedures are in this case. > [@](#): > > What I am doing is giving examples of policies I have seen and trying to explain why they exist. There is nothing in the excessively authorative manner in which you’ve posted to indicate that you are “giving examples of policies you have seen.” You say things like “If there is no policy in place, there’s really nothing the staff could do” (Post 53) and “inmates are not denied medical care” (Post 62) and “The obligation [of a jail]doesn’t include continuing therapies which the doctors decide are medically unecessary,” all of which are not necessary accurate and the first two of which almost certainly aren’t. You talk like you know what you’re talking about in every circumstance – “this is just the way things work” – but then you try to deny that’s what you’re doing. Furthermore, to the extent you are giving examples of policies “you have seen” (whatever the hell that means, beyond that you probably actually have no idea how these policies work or don’t work on the ground), you are discussing and applying prison policies to a situation involving a jail, thereby further confusing the situation and making your examples that much less persuasive. > [@](#): > > I have said (about five times by my count) that policies vary but correctional facilities all face similar issues and thus many of their policies have a similar basis. From that standpoint, I am trying to explain why they\* might\* exist at this particular facility. You have no idea what policies do or do not exist in this facility. You have no idea what was done or was not done in this circumstance. Yet you continue to post as if you have some special knowledge in this general area or the circumstances of this event, when in fact you have none. Worse, you continue to post a POV that is legally incorrect, and damagingly so – that is is better for a jail to withhold ONE DOSE of medication – to do nothing than to give the inmate the medication in good faith, after talking to the inmate and seeking guidance from superiors. All based on what your husband – not you – does, or used to do, for a living. > [@](#): > > Apparently, you missed the part where I said the first thing this employee probably did was to call her supervisor, who in turn, called their supervisor and so forth. Cite? And don’t bother retreateing to your “probably;” the truth is you have no idea whether this was probable or not, you just pulled it out of your ass. > [@](#): > > All of them had their hands tied by policy and none of them had the authority to decide to ignore it without facing sanctions. This is the point: Policy does not tie your hands. It is not a concrete entity that physically prevents you from doing what circumstances indicate to you is the correct thing under the circumstances. Again, if you try and are wrong, your facility is probably okay. If you do nothing and the inmate’s health is compromised, you have exposed your facility to a federal lawsuit. Policy should be flexible enough to understand that it cannot cover every conceivable occurrence, and to recognize that in some cases detention workers will have to exercise their best judgment and seek assistance as appropriate. The “their hands are tied so they had to allow the inmate to be harmed” argument is utter bullshit. > [@](#): > > And, yes, you’re right, that I am arguing against independant judgement in some respects. Policy exists for a reason and you can’t trust that people will always make the right decisions. Neither can you trust that people will always make the wrong decision. Since a good-faith effort is in many cases the difference between mere negligence (not actionable in federal court for these types of cases) and “deliberate indifference,” there should be no point at which your detention officers should be encouraged to DO NOTHING out of fear of making the wrong decision. Again, these officers do not work in a vacuum. They have chains of command and telephones, and they can use them. > [@](#): > > In another setting, this wouldn’t necessarily be that big of a deal but in a correctional facility, you’re dealing with\* lives.\* You know, you keep saying things like this, as if they are not completely self-evident. It’s pretty irritating. Here’s another example: “Policies are in place for a reason.” Here’s another: “Jails are busy places.” Fucking duh. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > No, I don’t want an officer making decisions of whether someone needs a medication or not. No, I don’t want to set the officer up for allegations of racism or discrimination. It’s in the officer’s best interest that they don’t have discretion because it protects them from the consequences. This is utter, utter bullshit. The FACILITY bears the risk for failing to see to the inmate’s serious medical needs, even if through its staff’s inaction, and if you don’t think shit rolls down hill and there aren’t consequences to the workers who cause that liability risk, it’s because that’s the sort of thing you don’t find covered in the policies you’ve “seen.” > [@](#): > > Instead, they should refer the situation to the appropriate authorites who will make the decision. For Chrissakes! **THAT’S WHAT I FUCKING SAID!** I said, “if the inmate told me just what pill it was and why she needed it, I sure as hell would be on the phone urgently punting the issue up my chain of command,” to which you immediately responded, “As would I, but there are other considerations at work” – no, there really aren’t in this case – and “medical services for prisons and jails sometimes operate like HMOs,” which is flat-out incorrect for the vast majority of jails. IOW, you picked apart my post to list “examples” based on policies you have “seen” – prison policies, not jail policies – while acknowledging that you don’t actually have any idea as to the events or policies in this case, when in fact **YOU AGREE WITH ME,** you’re just trying to be an authoritative pain in the ass – and not even on your own authority or expertise! On your husband’s! You are _completely_ exasperating. > [@](#): > > [Here](http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGknBBP8JFrIIAtuRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB2OWM1MXQ5BGNvbG8DdwRsA1dTMQRwb3MDNARzZWMDc3IEdnRpZAM-/SIG=13jr1a5ll/EXP=1170444481/**http%3a//www.state.nd.us/docr/central_office/POLICIES/Richland_Co_%2520policies/7%2520MEDICAL.doc) is an example of a jail’s medical emergency policy. Honey, if I need an example of jail policy, I just turn my head. I have approximately 200 of them on the shelf behind me. Although for relevance, nothing beats a policy from North Dakota. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > That’s assuming a hell of a lot. It’s assuming that the staff, who may have never seen this inmate before, knows that the person has allergies and that they have an epi pen handy. It also assumes that they’re trained in the use of it and that they recognized the symptoms of an allerigic reaction and diagnosed it correctly. No, it is assuming that the detention officers have been trained to recognize the signs of anaphylactic shock. Every detention officer should have that training, along training to recognize and respond to other time-sensitive emergencies. Yes, it also assumes the existence of the epi pen; every jail should have them in their emergency supplies. There is no diagnosis required when faced with anaphylaxis; all you have to do is recognize the signs, call for help, run get the pen, and administer the medication. Again “doing nothing” under such circumstances would be a massively stupid choice. > [@](#): > > But this is all immaterial if the jail had a policy of not allowing inmates to take their own medications and Plan B was not a part of their formulary. At that point, there would be nothing that they could do. This is absolute, complete, and utter bullshit. **BULLSHIT!** It is factually incorrect, and it is legally incorrect, for reasons already amply set forth. Now you can parrot this POV until you’re blue in the face, but you are quite simply full of shit, and if you’re getting this from your sainted husband, then he’s full of shit as well. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/102 "2007-02-01T22:30:36Z")
Yeah, but her hubby works in a prison. ---
**Author:** ![hawksgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ed655f/32.png) [@hawksgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawksgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/103 "2007-02-01T22:54:42Z")
[QUOTE=woodstockbirdybird] Yeah, but her hubby works in a prison. [/QUOTE] Really?! ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/104 "2007-02-01T23:00:00Z")
thanks, **Jodi** - good job. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/105 "2007-02-01T23:05:49Z")
[QUOTE=Jodi] And yet that doesn’t stop you from making very specific statements as to what “is” done or must be done or should be done, while simultaneously admitting that in reality you don’t know what the hell the policies are in this case, and you don’t know what the hell the procedures are in this case. [/quote] I’m not declaring what must be done-- I’m pointing out what is \*often \*done. As for not knowing the specifics of this jail, I’ve freely admitted it and said-- gosh, is it six or seven times now?-- that I am offering possible explanations for why the jail employees acted as they did. Whenever something goes wrong, isn’t it a good idea to consider _why_ it happened and the motivations of the people involved? > [@](#): > > There is nothing in the excessively authorative manner in which you’ve posted to indicate that you are “giving examples of policies you have seen.” And thus far, in your excessively snippy manner, I have seen nothing but accusations that I’m wrong with nothing to back it up. Yet _again_, I am only making suggestions about the possible reasons for the issue at hand based on things I have seen in the past. > [@](#): > > You say things like “If there is no policy in place, there’s really nothing the staff could do” (Post 53) and “inmates are not denied medical care” (Post 62) and “The obligation [of a jail]doesn’t include continuing therapies which the doctors decide are medically unecessary,” all of which are not necessary accurate and the first two of which almost certainly aren’t. Well, let’s take them in order, shall we? Post 53’s statement that the staff couldn’t do anything without policy in place is accurate in what I have seen of correctional facilities. Officers are not encouraged to make it up as they go along. If a situation arises which is not covered by policy, they are expected to call their supervisor who will then seek guidance. If the higher-ups can’t issue an order because of a lack of policy on the situation, they submit it to even higher authorities for their decision. The second, that inmates are not denied medical care is true, but, of course, there are exceptions. People fall through the cracks or they are given poor care, but those are _mistakes_, not standard operating procedure to ignore inmates’ needs. Detenional facilities have the obligation to provide the care that is mandated by state/federal laws and the policies of the institutions. The third is something that’s easily confirmable by doing a search for jail and prison medical policies. Many of them have that policy in writing on their websites. > [@](#): > > You talk like you know what you’re talking about in every circumstance – “this is just the way things work” – but then you try to deny that’s what you’re doing. No, honey. I’m saying that these are the way things work _when there are these kinds of policies in place._ > [@](#): > > Furthermore, to the extent you are giving examples of policies “you have seen” (whatever the hell that means, beyond that you probably actually have no idea how these policies work or don’t work on the ground), Actually, I do, but if you prefer to believe otherwise, more power to you. > [@](#): > > [Y]ou are discussing and applying prison policies to a situation involving a jail, thereby further confusing the situation and making your examples that much less persuasive. As I said before (what is it-- three or four times now?) jails and prisons face similar issues and so their policies are often similar in those areas, adjusted for circumstance, of course. My husband has worked with jails and juvenile detention facilities on their policies, too, so it’s not only prisons. > [@](#): > > You have no idea what policies do or do not exist in this facility. Yep. You’re absolutely 100% correct. > [@](#): > > Worse, you continue to post a POV that is legally incorrect, and damagingly so – that is is better for a jail to withhold ONE DOSE of medication – to do nothing than to give the inmate the medication in good faith, after talking to the inmate and seeking guidance from superiors. Please post a cite which demonstrates this. I have provided several cites which show that some jails’ polices frequently includes the stipulation that a doctor is allowed to withold treatment if he disagrees with it. I have provided cites which show that in some facilites, inmates are denied bringing their own medications. And I have provided cites which show that in some facilities, the staff is to refer medical questions to qualified personel, not make “judgement calls” on their own. Please provide evidence to the contrary. > [@](#): > > All based on what your husband – not you – does, or used to do, for a living. Once in a while, we talk. > [@](#): > > Cite? And don’t bother retreateing to your “probably;” the truth is you have no idea whether this was probable or not, you just pulled it out of your ass. I believe it’s a reasonable assumption based on observable behavior patterns. Most people, when faced with a question they can’t answer turn to their supervisors for help. Many places have rules which require medical issues to be brought to the attention of a supervisor. > [@](#): > > This is the point: Policy does not tie your hands. It is not a concrete entity that physically prevents you from doing what circumstances indicate to you is the correct thing under the circumstances. Again, if you try and are wrong, your facility is probably okay. If you do nothing and the inmate’s health is compromised, you have exposed your facility to a federal lawsuit. Once again, referring the matter to the appropriate medical authorities is not “doing nothing.” > [@](#): > > Policy should be flexible enough to understand that it cannot cover every conceivable occurrence, and to recognize that in some cases detention workers will have to exercise their best judgment and seek assistance as appropriate. The “their hands are tied so they had to allow the inmate to be harmed” argument is utter bullshit. “Harmed” isn’t a medical diagnosis, is it? You’ve got to admit that not getting a second dose of contraceptives is not something that everyone would agree is harmful, as they would, say, going into diabetic shock. The latter is a true medical emergency. Some would say that the former is not. > [@](#): > > For Chrissakes! **THAT’S WHAT I FUCKING SAID!** I said, “if the inmate told me just what pill it was and why she needed it, I sure as hell would be on the phone urgently punting the issue up my chain of command,” to which you immediately responded, “As would I, but there are other considerations at work” – no, there really aren’t in this case – Yes, there are. In the majority of cases, a sargent wouldn’t be allowed to make that call, especially if there are policies in place which direct him to do otherwise. > [@](#): > > {a}nd “medical services for prisons and jails sometimes operate like HMOs,” which is flat-out incorrect for the vast majority of jails. Interestingly enough, many jail and prison medical services _are_ HMOs-- or, at leats private companies which provide contracted services to the prison and operate much like an HMO. > [@](#): > > This is absolute, complete, and utter bullshit. **BULLSHIT!** It is factually incorrect, and it is legally incorrect, for reasons already amply set forth. Now you can parrot this POV until you’re blue in the face, but you are quite simply full of shit, and if you’re getting this from your sainted husband, then he’s full of shit as well. I provided examples of jail policies which actually do exist despite your insistance that they don’t. And I want to thank you for keeping this conversation so civil! You’re a shining example of the kind of rational, friendly debate that makes the SDMB such a wonderful place. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/106 "2007-02-01T23:12:58Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] And I want to thank you for keeping this conversation so civil! You’re a shining example of the kind of rational, friendly debate that makes the SDMB such a wonderful place. [/QUOTE] actually, **Jodi** is a shining example of what makes the SDMB great. you keep on insisting that you know that there’s differences between jails and prisons, but you are demonstrating you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/107 "2007-02-02T00:02:31Z")
[QUOTE=wring] actually, **Jodi** is a shining example of what makes the SDMB great. [/QUOTE] Ain’t that the truth. Someone around here doesn’t know the rules about being in a hole. Stop digging! Really. Try it. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/108 "2007-02-02T00:17:43Z")
[QUOTE=wring] actually, **Jodi** is a shining example of what makes the SDMB great. [/QUOTE] Amen! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/109 "2007-02-02T00:40:29Z")
I have a great deal of experience in criminal law, and when I was a public defender I spent a fair amount of time visiting jails throughout my state, working with the administration of those jails for issues that sometimes involved medication, and I had a stack of jail policy binders at my disposal probably pretty similar to **Jodi** ’s. However: that was never a key aspect of my work, and my experience in this area is woefully out of date now, and I’ve had no reason to try to keep up on it. So I have wisely refrained from offering any authoritive-sounding opinions here, lest someone who knows of whence they speak would hand me my ass on a platter. As has happened here, with the Blue Plate Special being Ass of Lissa, brought by your kindly server Jodi. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/110 "2007-02-02T01:02:13Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > I’m not declaring what must be done-- I’m pointing out what is often done. As for not knowing the specifics of this jail, I’ve freely admitted it and said-- gosh, is it six or seven times now?-- that I am offering possible explanations for why the jail employees acted as they did. Whenever something goes wrong, isn’t it a good idea to consider why it happened and the motivations of the people involved?. You don’t actually know what is often done in jails under these circumstances, which are very narrow. That’s why you try to keep enlarging the dicussion to general medical policy in prisons, but to what end? You began this entire cluster-fuck by quibbling with my point – which you actually largely agree with – and to attempt to argue that I am incorrect, when you have neither legal nor factual basis to make that argument. You are speculating as to what might be the policy inthis jail and as to what factually might have happened, when you don’t have the first idea as to why it happened and what motivated people. You are WAG-ging your ass off. > [@](#): > > And thus far, in your excessively snippy manner, I have seen nothing but accusations that I’m wrong with nothing to back it up. Then let me break this down into smaller pieces for you: 1. The legal standard for inadequate medical care in the corrections setting in jails AND prisons is “deliberate indifferent to serious medical needs.” 2. Therefore, if your facility in good faith does SOMETHING, even if at the end of the day it was the wrong decision, the facility AND the detention officer will probably not be found to be “deliberately indifferent,” which is actually a pretty hard standard to meet. 3. On the other hand, if you do NOTHING, your INACTION may be interpreted to be indifference to the medical needs of the inmate. If you do nothing and you know or should have known of what was required (in this case, giving the woman her meds), your indifference may well be held to be deliberate, and your facility held liable. 4. You are advocating for detention officers to refuse to exercise independent judgment and to refuse to take into consideration the realities of unforeseen, unique circumstances, if policy appears to prohibit their taking action. You are advocating inaction as a response to the inmate’s serious medical needs – indeed, even to the inmate’s emergency medical needs in the case of the epi pen. 5. Since you are advocating the position that is MORE LIKELY to support a finding of deliberate indifference and a hefty verdict against the facility, you are wrong. Period. > [@](#): > > Yet again, I am only making suggestions about the possible reasons for the issue at hand based on things I have seen in the past. Please explain to us the circumstances under which you have “seen things” in the past? What did you see? And how? Based on your professonal capacity? And what might that have been? > [@](#): > > Well, let’s take them in order, shall we? Post 53’s statement that the staff couldn’t do anything without policy in place is accurate in what I have seen of correctional facilities. This is merely a restatement of your assertion; it provides no indication that your assertion is actually so. On what grounds do you say that staff _cannot_ do anything without policy in place? And kindly do say “the policy says so.” The policy is not a physical thing that restrains the officers from doing anything. And please explain the context in which you have seen this in correctional facilities. > [@](#): > > Officers are not encouraged to make it up as they go along. If a situation arises which is not covered by policy, they are expected to call their supervisor who will then seek guidance. If the higher-ups can’t issue an order because of a lack of policy on the situation, they submit it to even higher authorities for their decision. Obviously, they are not encouraged to “make it up as they go along.” OTOH, in an emergent or urgent situation, they should be expected to use their independent judgment in light of the circumstances. Of course, they will be expected to escalate the issue up the chain of command, but at some point, if there is no policy on point, SOMEONE is going to have to make a decision. If a higher-up cannot be reached, that may be the detention officer. Relying on the absence of specific policy as the excuse to do nothing is – for the 900th time – a very bad idea. > [@](#): > > The second, that inmates are not denied medical care is true, but, of course, there are exceptions. Then it is not in every case true, is it? Your blanket statement that inmates are not denied medical care is wrong. And it is not only due to _mistakes_, it is more often due to a difference of opinion about the level of medical care that is necessary and appropriate – the inmate believing he needs Cadillac-level medical care immediately, and the health care provider determining that some lesser level of care is appropriate. This happens all the time. Daily. > [@](#): > > Detenional facilities have the obligation to provide the care that is mandated by state/federal laws and the policies of the institutions. More pompous pseudo-authorative declarations of the obvious. :rolleyes: I said, “Furthermore, to the extent you are giving examples of policies “you have seen” (whatever the hell that means, beyond that you probably actually have no idea how these policies work or don’t work on the ground).” . . . To which you reply, “Actually, I do.” So great: Let’s hear how you have first-hand experience working with correctional medical policies. At the very least, this should get you away from “My husband used to work in corrections.” I’m genuinely interested: When, exactly have you seen these policies at work on the ground? > [@](#): > > As I said before (what is it-- three or four times now?) jails and prisons face similar issues and so their policies are often similar in those areas, adjusted for circumstance, of > course. The policies will of course be similar to the extent that both deal with the provision of health care in corrections. What you are failing to appreciate, however, is that jails and prisons face significantly _different_ issues in the area of health care, including but not limited to: The transient nature of the jail population; difficulties in establishing medical histories and determining medical issues for a highly transient population; less access to qualified healthcare personnel; and – wait for it – more issues arising from medications being hand-carried into the facility on a daily basis. So all of your arguments based on prison policy are of very limited use in circumstances involving a jail – like the circumstances here. > [@](#): > > My husband has worked with jails and juvenile detention facilities on their policies, too, so it’s not only prisons. Oh my God, of _course_ he does. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Please post a cite which demonstrates this. _Ralston v. McGovern_, 167 F.3d 1160 (7th Cir. 1999): withholding medication may be deliberate indifference to a serious medical need for purposes of the Eighth Amendment. _See also_ _Greeno v. Daly_, 414 F.3d 645 (7th Cir. 2005): summary judgment denied to a nurse where inmate alleges nurse withheld meds and aggravated his esophageal injury. _Reed v. McBride_, 178 F.3d 845 (7th Cir. 1999): summary judgment denied to prison officials where inmate alleges he was denied meds for shingles. _Bird v. Wilson_, 701 F.2d 592 (6th Cir. 1983): summary judgment denied to prison officials where inmate alleges he was denied meds for liver disease. \*McHenry v. Chadwick[/i, 896 F.2d 184 (6th Cir. 199): Eighth Amendment claim upheld where deteniton officers give severely beaten inmate “nothing but Motrin”. And you have not provided a single cite to back up your ridiculous assertion that facilities are better off training their detention officers to refrain from exercising independent judgment and to slavishly adhere to policy even when it manifestly is to the serious detriment of the inmate’s health. > [@](#): > > Once again, referring the matter to the appropriate medical authorities is not “doing nothing.” In an emergency or urgent situation – such as when the inmate _must_ receive the medication within a given window in order for the treatment to be effective – “referring the matter to the appropriate medical authorities,” if they cannot be reached, may be tantamount to “doing nothing.” > [@](#): > > “Harmed” isn’t a medical diagnosis, is it? You’ve got to admit that not getting a second dose of contraceptives is not something that everyone would agree is harmful, as they would, say, going into diabetic shock. The latter is a true medical emergency. Some would say that the former is not. The LEGAL standard is “harmed” and does not turn on the existence or nonexistence of a specific, or indeed any, medical diagnosis. As I have already said, arguing that this woman was not harmed is not an argument I would want to make in court, especially for a victim of rape. > [@](#): > > Yes, there are. In the majority of cases, a sargent wouldn’t be allowed to make that call, especially if there are policies in place which direct him to do otherwise. Cite that in the majority of cases a sargeant would not be able to make the call, if futher escalation of the issue is not possible? I’ll eager to see how you’ll cite to “the majority of cases” since there are literally thousands of detention centers in the U.S. > [@](#): > > Interestingly enough, many jail and prison medical services are HMOs-- or, at leats private companies which provide contracted services to the prison and operate much like an HMO. Completely incorrect. Contracted service providers, like Southern Health Partners and Prison Health Services, provide specific services and service providers under detailed contracts. The health care consumer has no choice in provider and very little choice in health care. The contracting party – the jail – has very little say in how care is provided, so long as minimum standards are met and the contracted services are provided. They have very little in common with HMOs. > [@](#): > > I provided examples of jail policies which actually do exist despite your insistance that they don’t. I **NEVER** said any particular policy did not exist. What I **SAID** is that this statement: “But this is all immaterial if the jail had a policy of not allowing inmates to take their own medications and Plan B was not a part of their formulary. At that point, there would be nothing that they could do” Is complete and total **BULLSHIT**. > [@](#): > > And I want to thank you for keeping this conversation so civil! You’re a shining example of the kind of rational, friendly debate that makes the SDMB such a wonderful place. I have no patience with pseudo-experts who manifestly don’t know as much as they thing they do; who rely on others’ expertise to make up for their own deficiencies (“My husband used to be a warden!”)’ and who make indefensible statements like “If a drug’s not on the facility’s formulay, there’s nothing they can do.” If that interferes with your enjoyment of the Boards, I can’t say I’m sorry. And here’s the bottom line at this point for me: You appear to be one of those people who simply cannot entertain the idea that they may be wrong, or at least cannot concede when they are. I have no desire to keep kicking the intellectual shit out of you, because I see no indication you will ever do anything other than stubbornly dig in your heels and insist again that you are correct. And franky you’re not one of the posters I relish the opportunity to smack around; I’ve never had a problem with you before and have always thought well of you until today. So I think I’m about done here, unless you have any specific issues you’d like me to further address. Except I do want you to list your personal experiences dealing with corrections policy in the field, or as I phrased it above, on the ground. I suspect you don’t actually have any. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/111 "2007-02-02T01:04:03Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] I have a great deal of experience in criminal law, and when I was a public defender I spent a fair amount of time visiting jails throughout my state, working with the administration of those jails for issues that sometimes involved medication, and I had a stack of jail policy binders at my disposal probably pretty similar to **Jodi** ’s. However: that was never a key aspect of my work, and my experience in this area is woefully out of date now, and I’ve had no reason to try to keep up on it. So I have wisely refrained from offering any authoritive-sounding opinions here, lest someone who knows of whence they speak would hand me my ass on a platter. As has happened here, with the Blue Plate Special being Ass of Lissa, brought by your kindly server Jodi. [/QUOTE] Oh great, does this mean we’re all required to tip **Jodi** now? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/112 "2007-02-02T01:14:12Z")
[QUOTE=Gorsnak] Oh great, does this mean we’re all required to tip **Jodi** now? [/QUOTE] I suggest 20% minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/113 "2007-02-02T02:01:27Z")
Lissa, Nancy Grace on Court TV did a whole thing about this case. You should watch it or check to see if it’s at their site. It talked about her arrest including the officer complaining about it as well as the person that refused to give her the pill. Not only that, the police department put her picture on the Internet. A rape victim! According the the show the Plan B package was given to her at the hospital and when she was transferred to the jail it was explained that she needed to take the next pill in 12 hours or whenever it was. When it was time to get the next dose the person refused to give it to her. Again. The Plan B package was handed from the Doctor to the police. Then from the police to the jail. It was explained to them she had to take it. The supervisor **refused** to give it to her. This wasn’t the first time that this police department arrested a rape victim either. There was another case a few years ago where a woman was arrested after she was raped due to an outstanding warrant that involved her dog getting out of the yard and her not going to court. She was in such bad shape that she had to be taken to a mental hospital. I don’t know how anyone could defend what they did to this woman. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/114 "2007-02-02T03:56:01Z")
> [@](#): > > **Kalhoun** said: > Some pro-lifers believe that interfering with any possibility of conception is against god’s will. In that sense, this person could be a pro-lifer, though I agree it is not the usual interpretation of the term. And yet two people in this thread have already questioned whether it will harm ‘the baby’ or cause an incomplete termination of ‘the fetus’. Yet when you take Plan B (or any brand of EC), they do a pregnancy test **first**. If you’re already pregnant, it won’t work, and you don’t get the scrip. There is no fetus, nor even an embryo, at the point where Plan B works. > [@](#): > > **Mennochio** said: > That’s not an abortion. That’s not even close to an abortion. Right. For an abortion to occur, whether it be spontaneous (aka miscarriage), chemical (mifepristone), or surgical, there has to be a pregnancy. Plan B won’t work after you’re pregnant. > [@](#): > > **Bricker** said: > An abortion is the termination of a pregnancy after, accompanied by, resulting in, or closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus. And in order for Plan B to work, at all, there can’t already be a pregnancy in progress. > [@](#): > > **woodstockbirdybird** said: > Yeah, but her hubby works in a prison. And she works in a museum. > [@](#): > > **Lissa** said: > I’m not declaring what must be done-- I’m pointing out what is often done. And how the fuck would you know anyway? What actual experience do **you** have in administering a jail, and/or their medical policies? Jesus Harold Fucking Christ on a Pogo Stick, Lissa. Give up this ‘my hubby works in a prison’ shit. **Jodi** , props for trying to shine light on marble head. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/115 "2007-02-02T03:59:00Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] I don’t know how anyone could defend what they did to this woman. [/QUOTE] Lissa can! Her hubby is a prison warden and she knows all about stuff like that! Haven’t you been paying attention? ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/116 "2007-02-02T04:06:27Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Yet when you take Plan B (or any brand of EC), they do a pregnancy test **first**. [/QUOTE] This is not universally true. It may not even be the norm, especially with Plan B being available over the counter. If someone is concerned that Plan B might damage a fetus they plan to carry to term, they should ask their doctor about the specifics of their situation. ---
**Author:** ![HandsomeBWonderful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3d9bf3/32.png) [@HandsomeBWonderful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HandsomeBWonderful)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/117 "2007-02-02T04:34:43Z")
[QUOTE=woodstockbirdybird] Yeah, but her hubby works in a prison. [/QUOTE] And she works in a museum. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/118 "2007-02-02T04:36:05Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] There is no fetus, nor even an embryo, at the point where Plan B works. [/QUOTE] [Really](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/01/AR2006040100005.html)? > [@](#): > > However, Barr adds, the drug “may also prevent the fertilization of an egg” or **prevent a fertilized egg “from attaching to the uterus.”** The moment a zygote undergoes mitotic cell division, it is an embryo. Even before that, once we have a penetrated oocyte, or more accurately once we have an ootid (two separate haploid components) we have what’s called a [pronuclear embryo](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9619562&dopt=Abstract). But even taking that technical victory off the table, there is no question that once a zygtote that has undergone mitotic cell division, it is an embryo, and that happens before uterine implantation. And Plan B can act to prevent the embryo from implanting, per my Washington Post cite above. Right? ---
**Author:** ![HandsomeBWonderful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3d9bf3/32.png) [@HandsomeBWonderful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HandsomeBWonderful)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/119 "2007-02-02T04:36:29Z")
Dammit, catsix was there already. Anyway, add me to the Jodi-love crowd. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2007, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261/120 "2007-02-02T04:58:31Z")
Fine. You win. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rape-victim-arrested-refused-morning-after-pill/390261.md?page=7)