Rape, Yes, Yes, Yes, um. No. Rape?

Great Debates
21

I, personally, would probably end up a bit singed.

But she actually has to say ‘no’ and ‘stop’, and there’s nothing in the article to suggest that she did so. And there’s no clear word on how long it took him to get her weakly stated message and stop.

I’m concerned how quickly consentual sex can turn to rape.

I just read the 2nd linked article, and now the water is even more muddy. She accused 2 boys of rape. One plead out to a misdemeanor and the other is fighting it. Which one had sex with her first? Was force or coersion ever an issue? With either boy?

So I have to ask. If she admits she did not ‘officially’ tell the boy she no longer wanted to participate, how is he supposed to know she had withdrew consent???

22

:eek: Okaaayyy… Yikes. And if your kid walked in on you, you’d finish up while they watched and asked questions?

Yes, I agree. I should have mentioned that earlier, but I was mostly responding to Hermann, (who seemed peeved at the idea that a man should be expected to “stop” for any reason). This girl was too vague in expressing her desire to have the sex stop. I am troubled by this case.

Yes, but if the person (male or female) says, “STOP” then the other party must stop. The same way that they’d stop if the house was on fire (or I say, should stop), or what have you.

As samboy says, “it’s just sex”. My gosh. Get angry, never talk to that person, but don’t just keep on going after they’ve clearly said “Stop”. (Which, once again, I’ll repeat—I don’t think the girl was clear enough in her protestations.)

23

I would actually be inclined to think that “stop” alone should not constitute rape. If you say stop but otherwise make no attempt to resist, that is (unless, of course, there is an implied threat of bodily harm present). This, both because saying stop while doing nothing to resist can sends a mixed message, and more importantly, because it suggests that even if you didn’t want it you didn’t really really not want it. Which is NOT to say that people should be subjected to unwanted sex just because they don’t mind it enough - no need to harangue about this - but to say that this is not similar to a full scale rape and should not be punished nearly as severely.

24

Sorry IzzyR, but “Stop” while having sex with someone, means “Stop having sex with me”. Jesus, even if you stop and then the person says “Sorry, I didn’ mean that, lets keep going”, surely that is a million times better than somone saying “stop” and the person thinking “I dont think their body language conveyed the message ‘stop’ enough so I will keep going.”

How 'bout we follow the S&M example and make “STOP” the key word for “Cease all sexual activity 'till firther consent has been given”? Shit, we might ruin a couple of intimate moments, but we might prevent a couple of rapes.

25

This is so wishy-washy, I cannot believe it constitues a felony. “I want to go home” could very easily be interpreted as “Hurry your ass up, and let’s finish this thing.” His response of “I’ll be done in a minute” seems strangely reasonable to me.

I know some people won’t like this, but the woman has to at least make some sort of physical effort to stop the sex. Unless she’s restrained, or threatened, do SOMETHING to stop the sex. There was no indication here that the guy would have done anything untoward if she physically stopped the sex.

You can be damn sure that if she got a leg cramp, she’d have stopped the sex herself, or at least tried to. She didn’t try to stop him, she just whined about needing to go home. If he didn’t ‘force’ himself on her, how is this ‘forcible rape’?

Woman are not pathetic little children who can’t stand up for themselves. Well, most women aren’t.

26

OK, we all agree that ‘stop’ is the proper word, and that sex should cease immediately (if not sooner) at that point.

I am not covinced that ‘stop’ was used. Nor was the dissenting Judge. She seems to have been very wishy-washy and non-commital in her choice of words. I’d hate for that to be the reason this kid has has a felony conviction.

Maybe the kid knew what she meant. Maybe he knew she withdrew her consent and kept going anyway. But from what we’ve read in the links, that is far from clear. I see no intent to commit a crime.

27

I would like to offer a little first hand perspective.

When I was in college similar situations happened to me on two occasions. First, I had hooked up with a girl at a party. she was all over me, and I took her to my room. we were going at it, and all of a sudden she starts saying she needs to leave as she is supposed to be meeting her dad. I stopped, but was not exactly happy that a girl would do that when in my mind “whats another five minutes to finish?”. so anyway she gets halfway dressed, then changes her mind and we go back at it again. she again gives me the “wait, stop, i gotta go” so i stopped, grabbed her clothes, and escorted her out into the hall and locked the door behind her, end of story.

To the people that say that stopping in the middle of the act should be instantaneous, they must have never been in the middle of hot and heavy sex. This particular case wasnt that, it was just a romp so it was no big deal, just a girl that wanted to protest.

The next one is the bigger deal. A year or so later, I had a serious girlfriend with whom I shared a very hot and passionate sex life. We had a animal attraction for each other. (OK, this is going to be TMI and somewhat graphic, but necessary to the story, hide the kids at this time). She liked to be taken very vigorously. One particular time, i had her knees pinned to the bed up by her head and was going all the way in and all the way out, so that i had to make a re-entry on each thrust. It was very hot and heavy, very fast paced, and we were both really building up to a major climax. I am about 3 thrusts from climax, and i felt something a bit odd on the next inward motion, a kind of resistance like i missed the hole, but then slid in ok. She says “ouch, ow, stop!!!” and by the time she said that, i’d made another few motions in/out, and at that point hit my climax. When I had regained my senses a bit, i realized that she had said something hurt, and i asked what was wrong. With a kind of wry grin, she said she was ok now, but that “you missed once”. I didn’t understand. She took my finger and put it in her vagina and said “thats where you were supposed to be” and then took it out and put it down lower and said “thats where you went, you missed”. I was like “oops, sorry, are you ok?” and she said she was. We laughed and joked about it some and no one was any worse the wear for it. All was ok, but eventually she transferred to another school and fell into the clutches of the feminist studies bunch. I went to see her a year or so later, and the animal attraction was still there. After having great reunion sex, we were laying there talking and she said she had something that she needed to get off her chest. She said that it had been bugging her, and for closure she needed for me to admit that I had wronged her. I thought she meant cheating on her or something, so i asked her to elaborate. Her lip started to quiver, and tears started to flow, and she said “Y-y-y-y-ou R-R-R-R-APED ME!!!”. Of course you coulda knocked me over with a feather. I said “wait a minute, you told me you wanted me to help you live out that rape fantasy, and we had a code word and everything” she said, no, not that time, another time. I for the life of me couldn’t figure it out. Finally she told me. She said “i said stop, and you didn’t stop. thats rape”.
What had happened is in these feminists classes they taught them that ANY hesitation on a man’s part to comply with the woman’s wishes constitutes rape. Further, they told the class that many of them had been raped and didn’t even know it. They encouraged them to think back through their sexual history and remember any occurances, no matter how slight, when they had sex when the didn’t really want to (didn’t matter if they never complained, but only in their mind didn’t want to), couldnt remember because of alcohol but realized the next day they had had sex, or any other instance at all. They were then to share it with the group. Then when any girl brought up any instance at all, they were showered with compassion by her sisters at the trauma she suffered at the hands of the evil man. No question as to whether it was right or not, she was part of the oppressed sisterhood now. They had tried to get this girl to go to the police to report our incident, but luckily she refused. Their reasoning is that she owed it to all other girls who have suffered in silence before her, and to any who may someday be the victim of such a brutal assault in the future. Men must be taught a lesson that no means no, no matter how it is said or how it is delivered.
Well, no way was I gonna admit to anything as all that had happened was a little accident during acrobatic sex. We talked about it for a long time, and thats when i learned the story of how she came to believe that it was rape.

28

That really bothers me. They’re actually understating the seriousness of rape with that idea. I can guarantee you that I would damn well know if I’d been raped, since rape explicitely means a lack of consent. If I can think back to a time that I was less than enthusiastic, that doesn’t mean I was raped because I wasn’t 100% in the mood for it; it just means I wasn’t 100% in the mood but willing to do it anyway. By their logic, most teenage female virgins were raped their first time.

They also seem to be forgetting something. It takes a couple of seconds for words to enter your brain, be processed and for you to react to them, unless you were startled by something. Yelling “stop” in a loud voice would likely get most people’s attention. Saying “stop stop stop” in a normal but urgent tone probably means someone needs a moment to register the thought and then stop.

(If you don’t believe me, go play paintball. See how long it takes someone to stop shooting you once you’re hit. You’ll likely get peppered two or three more times once you were hit before they can stop pulling the trigger)

29

**Texican **. I think I must clarify that the maturity and obligation that I am laying (pardon the pun) on the male here is also inplicit in the females’ role. ie. the female is also aware of exactly what is going on and consent/lack of consent is expressed dynamically as the situation progresses.

From the way you describe the situation, that girl rolled you. That does not constitute rape. I have already described what I think rape is multiple times this thread. OTOH What constitues rape in the eyes of the law can (IMHO) be quite easily skewed by either parties (sadly).

I think the situation where a girl is shitfaced drunk or wasted on drugs is different. Having sex with a girl who cannot reasonably give consent is rape.

Now what the fuck is that, really. Some of these idealistic man-hating feminist classes/groups are really destructive. The same as a student that gets caught up in the idealism, novelty and simplicity of a radical socialist movement when they are at uni. Surely they will regret and or laugh at it later on when they have matured, but will some poor kid be put in prison in the mean time?

30

IzzyR

I disagree. *Really really not wanting it" is not and should not b the litmus test for rape. Not consenting is the standard. A person who does not consent yet is made an unwilling partner in sexual congress has been raped. I think trying to match a “sliding scale” to rape is stepping inot a quagmire from which nobody will escape cleanly, which is not to say that I think all rapes are equal or that no distinctions can be made.

Rape with violence/threat of violence vs. rape without vilence

Sure.

Rape of someone who doesn’t want it vs. rape of someone who really really doesn’t want it.

No.

31

Spiritus,

I would certainly agree with you if how much the victim did not want it was the actual legal standard that had to be decided by the jury. But in this case I am merely offering it as a rationale for a different standard. And that is merely a small modification of the first standard that you accepted. To wit:

Rape with violence/threat of violence or physical coercion vs. rape without violence or physical coercion

IOW, I would lump in a case where the rape is accomplished by physical brute force together with a case where it is accomplished by implication of violence. As distinguished by cases such as the one here, where apparently neither element was present.

Which again (& note to samboy here) is not to say that I think in such circumstances it should be considered appropriate, or even legal. But I don’t think it should be lumped together with rape, and think the penalties in place for rape envisioned a harsher crime.

32

All she could manage to muster up with respect to ending the intercourse was a couple of whines about going home. Rape is a serious crime, a serious violation against a person. Was she honestly feeling violated to that level during the incident? Her actions don’t seem to indicate this, they indicate someone who is bored and wants the action to be over.

Being raped is a terrible thing, not something you can be bored during. Nor is it something that one should try and prevent by a bland ‘I want to go home’. If it’s not a big enough deal to either forcefully say STOP, or physically stop the action, it’s not enough of a violation to be called rape.

33

This appears to be the opinion at issue.

34

What if a girl suddenly remembers she missed a couple pills? “A few more strokes” can be a pretty big deal.

35

A couple of thoughts here. First, if you read the opinion as cited above by Robb (thanks, btw) it is hard to imagine how the circumstances here could not be construed as rape. I think the opinion is a bit understated in indicating that the evidence of the initial consent was “inconclusive.” As written, the opinion scarcely suggests anything like consent at any time.

Second, assuming there was consent, as the opinion does, the issue really becomes whether that consent was actually withdrawn. I doubt anyone would argue that if a person initially consents and then says “Stop, I changed my mind, I no longer consent to you doing this,” then any continuation of the action would be considered rape. The facts of this case appear to suggest a bit more equivocal withdrawal of consent. I think one of the driving factors, however, is that the opinion notes that the trial court basically made a factual determination that consent was withdrawn. Such factual findings by a trial court are extremely difficult to overturn on appeal because the appellate court cannot see and hear the witnesses themselves and is left to read a “cold” record of what happened below. I think it’s also important to note that this is a juvenile adjudication instead of a criminal trial; the procedures and standards are vastly different, as is the outcome.

36

This being a juvenile adjudication instead of a criminal trial, how will the boy’s punishment be different than if it were a full-fledge adult rape case? Will it still be on his permanent record? Will he have to register with the local authorities any time he moves, and tell everyone he’s a rapist?

Jeff

37

Oh my god this absurd bullshit drives me absolutely fucking insane.

Thanks for letting me share.

38

I also encourage everyone to read the opinion. As Realhoops said, it is not clear that the young woman consented to sex in the first place. She also gave a stronger objection than the wishy-washy “I’ve gotta go” attributed to her by many posters – the first time she said she had to leave the defendant said “Just let me finish up”, to which she responded “No, I need to get home.” When he asked for more time again she again said, “No, I have to go home.” She also attempted to break physical contact and leave but was restrained by the defendant.

Could the young woman have resisted more aggresively? Perhaps. But from reading the opinion it seems apparent that she did clearly express her lack of consent and that the defendant chose not to respect this.

39

This brings up a question I have related to my personal experience.

I once stopped dating a woman who insisted that any ‘sexual’ touching without her explicit permission was rape. This meant that I couldn’t come up to her and grab her playfully since I must ‘ask permission’. I agreed to this but it waved many red flags as to our compatability.

One night, she was enraged and woke me up. It seems that, while sleeping, I cupped her breast. She claimed I ‘raped’ her. She told me if I ever did it again, she would call the police.

I broke up with her immediately. Weirdly enough, she was devestated. She didn’t want to break up and claimed she loved me. I stuck with the breakup telling her that I loved her and never, ever wanted to do something like rape her and, since I was sleeping, could not garantee that it wouldn’t happen again.

Well, not really. I just chalked her up as a nut-case.

However, what would have happened to me if she insisted I raped her and pressed charges?

40

I found the case, but I see Robb beat me to it and already posted a link. This really is a sad case. I think Laura has some serious self-esteem issues, and made some unbelievably bad choices. She agreed to drive this guy Juan (who she met at a bus stop 2 weeks earlier) to a party, then decides to stay at the party with several guys she has never met. She then willingly goes into a dark bedroom with this guy John to “talk”. Then Juan comes in, and she allows them to take her clothes off and fondle her. When cross-examined why she didn’t leave, she said “There is no reason. I just didn’t. I didn’t think about it. I had already tried to leave once, and they asked me to go in the bedroom and talk.” She admitted that she enjoyed it “because it was like a threesome”.

Here’s the really weird part: Juan supposedly raped her before John did, and was originally a co-defendant, but apparently changed his plea and admitted to sexual battery and unlawful sexual intercourse. She says Juan stopped when his condom fell off, and then left the room.

She then claims that she remained in the room naked because she couldn’t find her clothes in the dark. WTF?? She doesn’t know how to operate a light switch? Then John came in the room and began kissing her, and she kissed him back. She allowed him to penetrate her, and he rolled her over so she was on top. He had a cast on one arm, so he was only holding her with one hand. It seems pretty obvious that she had ample opportunity to leave up to that point. And she admits that she never told him “no”.

On the other hand, the boys both strike me as being incredible assholes who obviously took advantage of a girl with emotional problems. This guy John was telling her he cared about her and wanted her to be his girlfriend, which was obviously a load of crap. But was it rape? I don’t know. The issue seems to be whether saying “I have to go home” constitutes withdrawal of consent. Not a cut-and-dried case by any means.