# Raped at the pump again - when will it end? What can we do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697 "2005-08-26T04:59:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/201 "2005-08-30T17:15:09Z")
> [@Driver8](#): > > Clearly? You mean you linked to a site showing a political party winning the election based on a platform of repealing petrol taxes, which would refute my claim? Oh wait, you didn’t. The link was completely irrelevent! Sorry, my mistake. No, I didn’t. But that isn’t very surprising either. The one electable party in the country, Labour, isn’t going to want to cut fuel taxes otherwise it would also have to cut it’s bloated welfare schemes. The only party that is realisticallly going to cut fuel taxes are the Tories, who are, at the moment, completely unelectable and will remain so for quite some time. What I did show was that there is a lot of support for the reduction of fuel taxes. Your claim that if fuel taxes were such a big deal a party would have been elected off the back of them is complete nonesense. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/202 "2005-08-30T20:06:30Z")
> [@zenith](#): > > You need a good mechanic, Doors. My kid’s 1995 Cavalier with the old pushrod 2.2 motor that predates the Ecotec gets 30+ on the highway. > > My old Pontiac 6000, no lightweight, with a 2.5 pushrod engine got 26 in town. Never used it on the road in that it was a “spare” car, but I think it would have topped 30 on a long trip. > > Even my 2002 Aztek with luggage, camping stuff, the ferret’s cage and stuff (wonderful travel companions, ferrets) got 29.3 on one leg of my vacation and averaged 25.5 the whole trip. > > Or maybe your problem is a lead foot. > > At any rate, your experience isn’t normal. I’ve had two different copies of the same engine in two different cars. One of them got a bit over 30, one of them (the current one) gets about 28. I’ve seen GM claim 34 out of that engine. Yeah, if you magically appear on the highway doing the speed limit, keep going without slowing down and never get off, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/203 "2005-08-30T22:16:21Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > The 'rents and I just came back from a trip to, yep, Canada. I still don’t really know what a liter is but I figured we were paying about $4.50 a US gallon. A litre is about 3.7 gallons, so you’re guessing high. At $1.10 CDN per litre, which I’d guess is about where it is out there, you’re paying about $3.40 US a gallon or so, depending on the exact exchange rate. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/204 "2005-08-30T22:17:29Z")
Of course what I meant to say there is that a gallon is 3.7 litres. My other math is still correct. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/205 "2005-08-30T23:13:20Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > So, what does it cost all of you for a bus ticket? > > Here in Ottawa, Canada, it’s $3.75 per ticket (that’s about $3.13 U.S.). A bus or subway ticket (they’re the same) in Paris cost 1.07 €. (about 1.20-1.25 $ at the current exchange rate, I think). But most parisians buy a monthly card, since it’s significantly cheaper if you ride the metro/buses everyday (and besides, employers reimburse half the cost of the card). However, this is the cost for rides within Paris. If you commute, the price goes up significantly, depending on how long your ride is. So, I don’t think you can really make a comparison. You’d have to compare gthe cost for two persons living at the same distance from their office, for instance. Besides, public transportation in Paris is subsidized. All in all, I think it’s cheaper than driving for most people. Moreover, it generally (but of course it depends on the circumstances) take less time to ride the train/bus/subway than to drive, assuming you’re living in the suburbian area not long away from a train station and work in Paris (which would be the most common situation). I think that most people use public transportation because it’s more convenient rather than because it’s cheaper. Paris isn’t very car-friendly, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/206 "2005-08-31T08:35:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Of course what I meant to say there is that a gallon is 3.7 litres. My other math is still correct. I remember seeing a TV movie about a true-life “incident” with an airliner where they made that exact same mistake, and the plane ran out of fuel at 30,000 feet and had to glide in… ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/207 "2005-08-31T11:48:58Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Which people are you talking about? $480 a month for gas leaves me dead broke when you factor in rent, food, medicine, utilities. I’ll look HARD for an alternative long before it reaches that point. Maybe there’s lotta rich folks out there can afford it. But I don’t think so. By the time gas reaches $12 a gallon you’ll have a comfortable income (that’s my dearest wish) 🙂 . I realize though, that many other people will be left behind. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/208 "2005-08-31T16:29:34Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > I remember seeing a TV movie about a true-life “incident” with an airliner where they made that exact same mistake, and the plane ran out of fuel at 30,000 feet and had to glide in… And it happened in Canada. Here’s a good [article](http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/acsdisplay.html?DOC=vc2%5c2my%5cmy2_143.html) ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/209 "2005-08-31T17:34:07Z")
I was listening to a talk-radio show while driving this morning (Ron Owens, KGO), and they had on an energy trader who was predicting $4/gallon soon because of the aftermath of Katrina. Ouch. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/210 "2005-08-31T17:43:47Z")
> [@Gymnopithys](#): > > By the time gas reaches $12 a gallon you’ll have a comfortable income (that’s my dearest wish) 🙂 . I realize though, that many other people will be left behind. Will I also get pie in the sky when I die? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/211 "2005-08-31T18:22:57Z")
I agree with the $12/gallon figure. Gas would have to go up to around $20/gallon before I’d stop driving entirely. Obviously, as the price goes up, I’m trying to use my car less. I already don’t use it to commute, so that makes it easy. But even at $10 or $15 per gallon, it’s _still_ the most efficient way of travel for a lot of purposes, and the only reasonable way for some. I can go grocery shopping on my bike as long as I don’t mind going three times as often, but I can’t go TV shopping. I can take a bus, train, or plane for longer trips, but I can’t go backpacking or tow my boat around with one. Gas would have to get awfully expensive for me to decide it’s not worth towing my boat down to the harbor for a day of sailing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/212 "2005-08-31T19:36:18Z")
Just wanted to note this milestone: I paid \> $3/gal (for Regular) today for the first time ever. Made me think a bit, but gas is still a tiny part of my overall budget. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/213 "2005-08-31T20:54:22Z")
Occasional car use is one of the _worst_ reasons to keep a car. I often hear large vehicle drivers say that they need their large vehicle for the occasional move/large purchase/etc. (of course kids and dogs require daily transport and are a different subject.) Anyway, it is possible to rent a pickup truck and driver on a casual basis for around $50 off Craig’s List. In-Town Uhaul moves cost $20. Some area have carshare programs. Most people have an informal network of family and friends which could become more formal. It’s not that big of a leap to create a world where there are more reasonable solutions to the occasional need for a private (or large private) vehicle than keeping a whole thing around for the couple times a month when you really seriously need it. We should be working towards this world with the solutions we already have instead of praying for science to sustain our lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2005, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/214 "2005-08-31T21:15:05Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Occasional car use is one of the _worst_ reasons to keep a car. I often hear large vehicle drivers say that they need their large vehicle for the occasional move/large purchase/etc. (of course kids and dogs require daily transport and are a different subject.) Anyway, it is possible to rent a pickup truck and driver on a casual basis for around $50 off Craig’s List. In-Town Uhaul moves cost $20. Some area have carshare programs. Most people have an informal network of family and friends which could become more formal. Good points. People bitch and moan about the cost of gas, but it’s mainly that we’re all so used to the convenience of just burnig as much as we want. As I said earlier, I can easily use a bike for a good deal of my transportation. I useit some now, but as gas gets more expensive, I’ll use it more. Biking is more recreational for me, but it can easily become practical, too. The air is a lot cleaner than it was even 20 years ago due to technological improvements, but buring less gasoline in the first place will make it even cleaner. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/215 "2005-09-01T03:48:13Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Occasional car use is one of the _worst_ reasons to keep a car. I often hear large vehicle drivers say that they need their large vehicle for the occasional move/large purchase/etc. (of course kids and dogs require daily transport and are a different subject.) Anyway, it is possible to rent a pickup truck and driver on a casual basis for around $50 off Craig’s List. In-Town Uhaul moves cost $20. Some area have carshare programs. Most people have an informal network of family and friends which could become more formal. > > It’s not that big of a leap to create a world where there are more reasonable solutions to the occasional need for a private (or large private) vehicle than keeping a whole thing around for the couple times a month when you really seriously need it. We should be working towards this world with the solutions we already have instead of praying for science to sustain our lifestyle. Depends on your definition of ‘occasionally’. I’m supposed to pay $50 to rent a pickup to take my lawnmower in for service? Last week we bought a new bike for my daughter. I’m supposed to rent a truck to bring that home? Then there are the countless times that homeowners have to pick up bags of fertilizer, flowers and shrubs in the spring, maybe a new barbecue or other piece of large furniture, rent a spreader for fertilizer and bring it home, take TVs in for repair, carry stereo gear or musical instruments, etc. Then there are hobbies. Flying R/C planes is a lot easier if you own an SUV or a large wagon. Diving equipment, ski gear, telescopes, bags of hockey gear, fishing equipment, computers… I haul a lot of stuff in our SUV. It’s ‘occasional’ but that can be anywhere from once a month to once every couple of days. And I think I’m pretty average in terms of needs. Plus, if you take four people on vacation for any length of time, trying to fit belongings for four for two weeks in a small sedan is pretty much impossible. This summer we went to the lake for a week. Just the wife and our daughter, and our small SUV was full. clothing, beach gear, swimwear, coleman cooler… We could never fit that stuff in a smaller vehicle. People don’t buy SUVs for the reasons some anti-SUV types accuse them of. They aren’t buying them because they have small penises, or because they like raping the earth or lording it over other drivers. They aren’t trying to own the road or dominate their neighbors. They buy SUVs because they are an extremely practical vehicle for homeowners in the suburbs and for small businessmen. And financially speaking, consider - the difference in CAFE fleet average between a car and a light truck is 6 mpg. If the average car driver drives 15,000 miles in a year, he’ll burn about 555 gallons of gas. The SUV driver burns about 715. So the SUV burns 160 gallons more. At even $5/gallon, that’s only an additional $67/mo. There are an awful lot of people who are willing to pay $67/mo for the utility of driving an SUV vs a small car. Especially since those people probably spent $30,000-$60,000 for that SUV in the first place, when they could have purchased a car for 1/2 of that amount. Where the costs get significant is when you buy those huge monster SUVs like the Suburbans and Hummer H2s. Those giant things might burn 1500 gallons a year or more. If gas goes to $5, that’s $4500 a year in gas, which starts to get pretty expensive, even for people who own that class of vehicle. The big change in the market is not going to be towards small cars so much as from huge SUVs to smaller ones. Fewer Suburbans, more Ford Escapes and Subaru Outbacks. Small wagons are also on the rise in popularity. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/216 "2005-09-01T06:49:43Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Then there are the countless times that homeowners have to pick up bags of fertilizer, flowers and shrubs in the spring, maybe a new barbecue or other piece of large furniture, rent a spreader for fertilizer and bring it home, take TVs in for repair, carry stereo gear or musical instruments, etc. Then there are hobbies. Flying R/C planes is a lot easier if you own an SUV or a large wagon. Diving equipment, ski gear, telescopes, bags of hockey gear, fishing equipment, computers… I haul a lot of stuff in our SUV. It’s ‘occasional’ but that can be anywhere from once a month to once every couple of days. And I think I’m pretty average in terms of needs. And yet millions of homeowners get by without SUVs. It’s possible for a family of four to do just fine with a sedan. Mine did, and we did go on long vacations in a sedan. Like anything else, vehicle space is subject to Jones’s Law of Shelf Space, which stipulates that no matter how much storage space you have, you will think you need more. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2005, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/217 "2005-09-01T07:05:58Z")
Sure, it’s possible. It’s possible that they could get by with a little micro car too. My point is that the marginal value of owning an SUV is, for a lot of people, greater than the value of the money paid out for the extra gas. That’s why they buy them. And I gave many examples of why they might value that extra utility. That’s certainly the case for me, and I spent a long time analyzing that decision before I decided to sell our old vehicle and buy a small SUV. To be honest, I would have preferred a small sports sedan, but it just didn’t have enough utility for me. And of course, being in Canada 4WD is worth a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Boggette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@Boggette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boggette)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/218 "2005-11-09T12:48:33Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > People, please do just the tiniest bit of research. The Department of Energy web site has lots of detailed, relatively easy-to-read information on how the industry works. Read and learn. Yep. Guess I was just totally wrong. [http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/07/news/economy/oil\_hearing/index.htm?cnn=yes](http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/07/news/economy/oil_hearing/index.htm?cnn=yes) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/219 "2005-11-09T13:01:50Z")
> [@Boggette](#): > > Yep. Guess I was just totally wrong. > > [http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/07/news/economy/oil\_hearing/index.htm?cnn=yes](http://money.cnn.com/2005/11/07/news/economy/oil_hearing/index.htm?cnn=yes) Just because half of the Senate is ignorant of how the industy works and the other half want to increase their visibility at the expense of a long-time boogey-man doesn’t make their (or your) claims any more the truth. The fact is, when you buy a barrel of gas at $35 and it jumps to $60 before you can sell it, you’re going to make money. Oh, no! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Boggette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/858c86/32.png) [@Boggette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boggette)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2005, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/220 "2005-11-09T13:53:06Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Just because half of the Senate is ignorant of how the industy works and the other half want to increase their visibility at the expense of a long-time boogey-man doesn’t make their (or your) claims any more the truth. > > The fact is, when you buy a barrel of gas at $35 and it jumps to $60 before you can sell it, you’re going to make money. Oh, no! :rolleyes: Are you honestly saying that you think it’s just hunky dory for these companies to charge whatever margin they want over the cost, on a product that people have no choice but to buy? We aren’t talking about normal profit margins here, no matter how you chose to slice it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697.md?page=12)