# Raped at the pump again - when will it end? What can we do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2005, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697 "2005-08-26T04:59:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/41 "2005-08-26T13:15:03Z")
DirkGntly - Well said. I however choose to ignore your intelligent, well thought out argument and blame the high gas prices on the following: -George W. Bush. Bush has known connections to the oil industry and is therefore in favor of high oil prices so he can get even richer. -The Republicans. They’re just evil so they must have something to do with this. -Evil energy companies. For years, these companies have prevented development of alternative to gasoline. If it wasn’t for them, the world would be driving on cars powered by rainbows. -People who drive SUVs or any car nicer than a VW hippy bus. Everyone should drive a tiny fuel efficient car no matter how large their family is, how bad their winter weather is, or how much money they make. -Saudi conspiricies. The Saudis are secretly stockpiling all the oil in an elaborate scheme to drive up prices. -People who won’t use mass transit. Mass transit is comfortible, reliable and accessible to everyone. Once we design our cities so every possible destination is connected by rail, tram, bus or monorail, we’ll be all set. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/42 "2005-08-26T13:15:52Z")
If all you in other countries are paying so much more than I am, why aren’t you upset? Instead of being surprised at my “sense of entitlement” why don’t YOU feel entitled to do something about the prices which are even worse for you than they are for me? Even if you drive a more efficient car, you’re still getting screwed. > [@priapus](#): > > wow.Rape used to mean a horrible act of violence,now it means paying more for gas than one wants. Next time you say “this back pain is killing me,” remember that logic. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/43 "2005-08-26T13:18:07Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > Lowering the huge fuel taxes immensely would help more than anything. Increasing refining capacity in the US and ignoring the blatant lies of enviromental extremists and drilling more in ANWAR and offshore in the US certainly would help a bit as well. But I don’t think dramatically. But given increased world demand (China) and US supply (refiners are at capacity, no?), I think that high prices will be around for a long while. A change towards smaller engines, more diesel engines, and smaller vehicles is probably what will happen. I’d rather drive a 3/4 ton pickup with a V8, but economically, I’m much better off with a little pickup and a 4cyl. People will have to start choosing a nice car instead of the 4 door pickup or large SUV for family cars because high dollar gas is here to stay. Which Lies do you speak of? Are you pointing to anyone in the thread or do you wish to make an external cite? ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/44 "2005-08-26T13:21:45Z")
> [@Argent](#): > > If all you in other countries are paying so much more than I am, why aren’t you upset? Because we realise that taxation is an effective and fair mechanism by which to dissuade us from burning fossil fuels. Yes, it disproportionately inconveniences the poor, and so we attempt to ameliorate that effect via other welfarist means, but if the consequences of not limiting emissions _are_ as negative as [bad case scenarios](http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1153513,00.html), we will _all_ be the poorer. ---
**Author:** ![TwoTrouts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a9adbd/32.png) [@TwoTrouts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwoTrouts)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/45 "2005-08-26T13:22:29Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > Incidentally, I forgot something else. The increase in fuel costs has resulted in upward pressures in prices across the board. They may not have manifested themselves yet, but they have to eventually. This makes sense because it takes fuel to get goods from here to there and that price will be passed on to us in the form of increased prices. > > These prices are having dramatic effects across the board, not just at the pumps. Poorer people will be bitten very hard by this if they’re not already feeling the pinch. This is a very good point. The climb in gas pump prices is just the first ripple to become noticeable to the consumer. Watch the airline industry for more effects as the price to fly climbs dramatically. Soon, the family vacation flight to Orlando will be out of the question, and people will vacation closer to home. Then machined goods will start climbing, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/46 "2005-08-26T13:24:30Z")
OK, here’s something to consider - for what it’s worth, a guy that I used to know told me that his father worked on an oil pipeline in Alaska, and claimed that the caribou population in the area that they were drilling in _increased_. Before we worry about the problems that drilling in the ANWR might cause, we ought to first look at the effects on the caribou population that other oil drilling in other parts of Alaska have had. Does anyone know if the populations of animals in the areas that have already been worked on have indeed decreased? I see many sites claiming that they have actually increased. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/47 "2005-08-26T13:25:07Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > _Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right…_ True. I was unfair. But the assertion is easily falsifiable with a simple experiment, not so? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/48 "2005-08-26T13:27:52Z")
> [@jrfranchi](#): > > Which Lies do you speak of? > Are you pointing to anyone in the thread or do you wish to make an external cite? Prove that anything that any of the reasons that enviromental extremists use in their argument against offshore developement or ANWAR is true. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/49 "2005-08-26T13:34:33Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > Prove that anything that any of the reasons that enviromental extremists use in their argument against offshore developement or ANWAR is true. I can’t address the argument, if you don’t state what it is. The only real argument I’ve heard (or Made) was that there is not enough oil to make a real difference. The other arguments I have occasionally heard are the impact on wildlife and that it is really just an effort to maintain/increase employment levels. These are both non-factual debates as much as opinions. If this is what you’re deriding, fine I cannot argue them logically. ---
**Author:** ![Mycroft\_Holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a5b964/32.png) [@Mycroft\_Holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mycroft_Holmes)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/50 "2005-08-26T13:37:46Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > If all you in other countries are paying so much more than I am, why aren’t you upset? Because the taxes collected on fuel help to build our good public transport. I own a car that gets almost 40mpg but even then it just sits in its parking space almost all week. For my daily commute (around 60 miles roundtrip) I ride a bicycle to the train station, and then the train to work (only takes me about an hour each way, but with the traffic here, the car takes just as long). I only use the car for longer trips or weekly grocery shopping. That means I can get by on one tank of gas (about 60 Euros or US$ 73) per month. Why do people in the States use the car to go everywhere? Wouldn’t it help if you sometimes rode the bicycle the five miles to the post office or bank? [This guy](http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=caple/050825) seems to agree with me. ---
**Author:** ![robz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac8455/32.png) [@robz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robz)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/51 "2005-08-26T13:37:52Z")
Lower Oil prices in a few years acording to this guy: [http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-opyer244395448aug24,0,6197131.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines](http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-opyer244395448aug24,0,6197131.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines) quote: " There will be a large, unprecedented buildup of oil supply in the next few years." Assuming the refinery issues can be managed. Or you can subscribe to Matt Simmons who says roughly that we don’t know because oil reserve data is secret and that we may be heading to the point where demand surpasses the peak of geological production. From what I read around the web ( :dubious: ) oil production will peak around 2012 to 2020. The Saudi’s say that they can increase production and maintain high production for at least till 2050. There is one retired, Saudi, ex official who does not agree with that statement. But don’t worry, the economist say that oil can’t be running out or else the market would be bidding it up even higher or demand will fall due to higher prices ( at what point would that be $10 gallon?). ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/52 "2005-08-26T13:41:05Z")
> [@Argent Towers](#): > > OK, here’s something to consider - for what it’s worth, a guy that I used to know told me that his father worked on an oil pipeline in Alaska, and claimed that the caribou population in the area that they were drilling in _increased_. I can confirm this. I have several friends who worked on the North Slope, and they reported that, contrary to reports of interfering with caribou calving, the caribou actually preferred to give birth on the concrete drilling pads; apparently they could avoid some of the mosquito swarms on the pads. This caused disruptions in drilling operations because of policies to not disturb the caribou. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/53 "2005-08-26T13:41:13Z")
> [@UB](#): > > Prove that anything that any of the reasons that enviromental extremists use in their argument against offshore developement or ANWAR is true. I suspect that they would merely detail the _effect_ of the platforms on the local landscape and ecology. Now, you and they may differ on whether those effects are _unacceptable_ or even _negative_, but it would be difficult to dispute that the erection of multiple drilling platforms will not _change_ the local ecology in some way. If you were to shrug and say “So what? Those effects are trivial”, one could not _prove_ you wrong. However, that would not warrant characterising the labelling of such effects _non_trivial as “lies”, surely? ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/54 "2005-08-26T13:46:22Z")
Ah, semantics. I see what you’re saying, **Sentient Meat,** but a lot of the environmentalists really do make it sound like the ANWR is going to be obliterated by the proposed drilling. If it’s true that the caribou are actually helped, not harmed, then “lies” seems to be an appropriate word for the misinformation we’re talking about here. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/55 "2005-08-26T13:48:40Z")
Lest we think that Europeans are being the responsible stewards that they claim to be, I have some numbers for you, courtesy of the EPA: > [@](#): > > Lowest Fuel Economy by Vehicle Class:\* 2005 Model Year > Class > > Make/Model > > MPG > city/highway > Two Seater Lamborghini L-147/148 Murcielago 9/13 > Minicompact Car Aston Martin DB9 Volante 11/18 > Subcompact Car Maserati Coupe & Gransport 12/17 > Compact Car Bentley Continental GT 11/18 > Midsize Car Bentley Arnage 10/14 > Large Car Bentley Arnage LWB 10/14 > Small Station Wagon Audi S4 Avant (manual) 15/21 > Midsize Station Wagon Mercedes E55 AMG Wagon 14/21 > Sport Utility Vehicle Mercedes G55 AMG 12/14 > Minivan Kia Sedona 12/14 > Pickup Truck Dodge Ram 1500 Pickup 2WD 9/12 > Cargo Van Chevrolet Astro AWD (Cargo) Conv > GMC Safari AWD (Cargo) Conv " > Ford E150 Econoline 2WD 14/17 > Passenger Van Ford E150 Club Wagon 13/17 Hmmm…I’ll be damned. I see a whole boatload of Europe in there, like ALL THE CARS. And before someone tries to deflect the Bentley or Aston by saying that Ford owns them, I’d like to point out that Bentleys and Astons have had historically bad fuel economy and it is nothing new to Ford. If you’d like I could try to find some company-wide CAFE standards. I KNOW that would be eye opening. BMW, Mercedes and Audi (actually most of the Volkswagen Group) are particularly negligent in this regard if my back issues of _Car and Driver_ and _Road & Track_ and _Motor Trend_ can be trusted. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/56 "2005-08-26T13:54:25Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > I suspect that they would merely detail the _effect_ of the platforms on the local landscape and ecology. Now, you and they may differ on whether those effects are _unacceptable_ or even _negative_, but it would be difficult to dispute that the erection of multiple drilling platforms will not _change_ the local ecology in some way. If you were to shrug and say “So what? Those effects are trivial”, one could not _prove_ you wrong. However, that would not warrant characterising the labelling of such effects _non_trivial as “lies”, surely? To me they’re lies. I recognize enviromental damage. Contaminate ground water, kill off large amounts of wildlife or fish, destroy vast tracts of vegetation unnecessarily, etc. that is an enviromental problem. Upseting the the far, hard Left or enviromental extremists over trivial matters like just being there is not a true enviromental problem. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/57 "2005-08-26T13:56:13Z")
Of course, **Airman** , I said not that Europeans were perfect, but that they largely _accepted_ high fuel prices as a means of dissuading fossil fuel use. Even then, there are clearly many Europeans who disagree and use inefficient vehicles (although if I may say, choosing European _car manufacturers_ as your critical statistic is a rather odd choice - if a European owned an inefficient European car they would still contribute fewer emissions if they _used it less_.) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/58 "2005-08-26T13:56:18Z")
The LOGICAL thing to do here is to fund research for the development of solar-powered cars and other alternative energy sources. As long as oil is in the hands of those Middle Eastern oil ticks, we are all screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/59 "2005-08-26T14:04:36Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Of course, **Airman** , I said not that Europeans were perfect, but that they largely _accepted_ high fuel prices as a means of dissuading fossil fuel use. Even then, there are clearly many Europeans who disagree and use inefficient vehicles (although if I may say, choosing European _car manufacturers_ as your critical statistic is a rather odd choice - if a European owned an inefficient European car they would still contribute fewer emissions if they _used it less_.) So in other words it’s not the vehicle, it’s how often it’s used? Make up your mind. Do SUVs suck because they’re gas hogs? If so, you can look no further than the Continent for a good bit of the gas hog problem. Or is it because they’re driven so much? If gas hogs are OK when they’re driven less (as you seem tobe saying) then you need to ease off the “Large, wasteful, gas hogging vehicles” schtick. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697/60 "2005-08-26T14:05:04Z")
> [@](#): > > **Argent** : If it’s true that the caribou are actually helped, not harmed, then “lies” seems to be an appropriate word for the misinformation we’re talking about here. > > **UB** : To me they’re lies … Upseting the the far, hard Left or enviromental extremists over trivial matters like just being there is not a true enviromental problem. Well, OK, but I still think that’s rather strong. Even an increase in caribou would still represent an upset of the ecological equilibrium which they are surely justified in at least _pointing out_? However, I’d agree that it’s not an environmental _disaster_. My point is that [fuel emissions](http://www.ipcc.ch/present/graphics/2001syr/large/02.01.jpg) _do_ risk a true disaster, and not just in a corner of one continent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-at-the-pump-again-when-will-it-end-what-can-we-do/318697.md?page=4)