# Raped woman sentenced to 90 lashes. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 6, 2007, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837 "2007-03-06T18:54:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/61 "2007-03-07T03:02:29Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Ah fergawdsakes, you surely are not playing ‘our dad is nicer than your dad’?..Not sure where this holier-than-brown-people BS comes from given that it was not a whole heckuva long time ago when The Enlightened States mistreated women and people who weren’t white because the law didn’t forbid it…Maybe just for the hell of it try to look for the good that can be found in other faiths and quit allowing yourself to think it’s valid to condemn one-sixth of the planet because a small proportion of them are nutjobs…Do you realize that current stats are that there are one hundred million evangelicals in the US? Fully one-third of the nation? That, my friend, scares me much more than your Islamic boogeymen do. [/QUOTE] Thanks for the offer to be your strawman, but I’ll have to pass. I’ve been as critical of Christianity here as Islam. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/62 "2007-03-07T03:32:55Z")
[QUOTE=villa] The Saudi regime exists not as a secular entity, but as Custodian of the Holy Places. There simply isn’t the same concept of the state in Arabic culture as there is in Western culture. It’s why apostasy is such a big deal in many Middle Eastern cultures - it is seen by many as tantamount to treason. Saudi Arabia is a theocracy. The governing powers rule on a religious basis. It is possible to separate Islam from the Saudi government, to the extent that the Saudi government does not represent all of Islam, but it isn’t possible to separate the Saudi government from its interpretation of Islam. It is a pure theocracy. And they suck whatever the religion concerned is. [/QUOTE] You are _so_ missing my point. That thing you just said: “the Saudi government does not represent all of Islam” - THAT was my point. I don’t know how you missed it. I really thought I was being pretty fucking obvious. Perhaps an analogy will help? (Probably not, because some doofus will overextend the analogy and pick it apart like jackals over a carcass, but here goes…) We could say that Jim Jones’ cult was all about Christianity, as he saw it. So we could say that The People’s Temple couldn’t be seperated from Christianity. That’s NOT the same thing as saying Christianity is about Jim Jones. Clear now? I certainly fucking HOPE it’s clear. ---
**Author:** ![eenerms](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cdc98d/32.png) [@eenerms](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eenerms)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/63 "2007-03-07T04:09:47Z")
FWIW, the Woman’s lawyer is appealing the sentence. There have always been some pretty fucked up happenings in Saudi concerning women. Recently, a couple of women were divorced in absentia and then jailed when they were found ‘living in sin’. The divorces were requested by the ‘male guardians’ of the women baised on tribal affiliations, which are not recognised in Shiria law. What I find interesting is that these cases are published in the local newspapers and show how backward the Saudi Society can be at times. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/64 "2007-03-07T05:09:14Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] As you say, just as Islam is dozens of sects, one of which is Wahabi. [/QUOTE] Right. But the Catholic Church is _one_ faith that states pretty clearly that it’s a sin to molest altar boys. In the confession of Islam that these people practice, whipping a girl for getting raped is not a sin, in fact it’s required. So comparing this particular form of Islam to the Catholic Church is inappropriate. As I pointed out the first time I posted, most Muslims are not Wahabbis, or Arabs, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Trivial\_Trivia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Trivial\_Trivia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trivial_Trivia)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/65 "2007-03-07T06:01:28Z")
“You can’t leave your husband. Your job is to keep your family intact. If your actions cause him to beat you into a bloody pulp you must look deep into your soul to discover what you are doing to make him do that.” I know it’s really, really hard to belive that mainstream Christian men of the cloth preach that line of bullshit, but it happens across the globe. I think it’s disgusting that a woman was whipped for being raped, but I think it’s more disgusting that socio-economic pressures conspire to force free women to remain in abusive relationships. How many native-born white American women were killed by abusive partners in, say, 2002? 2003? 2004, 2005, 2006? How many native-born white American women were abused by partners in those years? How many women in SA were killed by abusive partners in those years? How many women were abused by their partners in those years? But you’re on a roll, so don’t let me stop you from preaching your anti-Islamic rant. ---
**Author:** ![Darryl\_Lict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Darryl\_Lict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darryl_Lict)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/66 "2007-03-07T06:45:39Z")
My impression of Islam is that it is fundamentally misogynistic. I feel like the religion is largely about men trying to maintain the status quo. Does anyone know what the percentages are of different sects (actually, I’d be more interested in the various restrictions on women’s rights)? Warning, this is a gross simplification, as all countries are not homogeneous. I assume Turkish Muslims have amongst the mildest restrictions or really none at all. Moderate Islam in large parts of Egypt, Lebanon, and the rest of Northern Africa, India and Malaysia. Next in line might be Indonesia. I guess sharia law is the other extreme which exists in the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, Somalia and Nigeria (places that make the news). ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/67 "2007-03-07T07:00:59Z")
Arab Muslims desperately need their equivalent of the Enlightenment. Although incidents like this grab headlines it’s really just the tip of the iceberg. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/68 "2007-03-07T07:25:43Z")
[QUOTE=Darryl Lict] My impression of Islam is that it is fundamentally misogynistic. [/QUOTE] Yeah. Which is sooo different from other societies and indeed other religions. Do any of you who strive so mightily to hold Western society out to be spectacularly more fabulous than all others actually live on this planet? Are you, perchance, male? ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/69 "2007-03-07T07:42:05Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] **Originally Posted by Stranger On A Train: The Roman Catholic Church has never acknowledged wrongdoing in terms of moving known paedophile priests from parish to parish, failing to report known acts of paedophelia and encouraging the suppression of evidence by witnesses, or extending an apology for said acts to victims of convicted paedophile priests.** [The Catholic Church has formally apologized for the sexual abuse of children by pedophile priests. The president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Wilton Gregory, cited the “immeasurable damage” done to children and their families.](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week525/cover.html) [Synopsis of actions taken by the church (effective and ineffective) in the five years following the Dallas conference.](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6799693) [/quote] I see an apology to the victims for what was done to them, but where’s the acknowledgment that they covered-up wrongdoing and protected the guilty? > [@magellan01](#): > > Precisely. And as has been pointed out, the church never condoned the behavior. Huh, WHAAAAA??? con·done /kənˈdoʊn/ –verb (used with object), -doned, -don·ing. 1. to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like). I don’t know what fantasy world _you_ live in, but they most certainly condoned it. Read a paper, for Chrissakes. > [@](#): > > But, no matter. Islam MUST BE DEFENDED, NO MATTER WHAT. It never amazes me the lengths some will go to protect Islam from being “unfairly” characterized in instances like this. 'Yeah, it’s just a handful of extremists, but it’s a beautiful religion of peace…"…blah, blah, fucking blah… You’re a moron. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/70 "2007-03-07T07:50:12Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] How many times does anyone have to say that there are \*\*ONE BILLION \*\* Muslims, the vast, vast, vast majority of whom are in fact, not acting as ‘brutal warriors’ and ‘encouraging aggression’. [/QUOTE] Since blind hatred is not a rational state of mind, it’s pretty tough to talk people out of it using reason. I’d say if they don’t get it the first time, they aren’t going to. ---
**Author:** ![Angua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8baadc/32.png) [@Angua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angua)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/71 "2007-03-07T08:27:10Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] But, no matter. Islam MUST BE DEFENDED, NO MATTER WHAT. It never amazes me the lengths some will go to protect Islam from being “unfairly” characterized in instances like this. 'Yeah, it’s just a handful of extremists, but it’s a beautiful religion of peace…"…blah, blah, fucking blah… [/QUOTE] Oh fuck right off. It _is_ a handful of extremists that are doing this. I know of many many sects where the elements of peace, tolerance, learning, understanding and peaceful co-existence with one’s fellow man are emphasised and being brutal and the desire for Jihad are positively discouraged. Unfortunately, the extremists are the ones who will shout the loudest, and who, through their attention getting antics get the most attention. The billions of Muslims who lead lives fully integrated with the ‘native’ populations of the countries in which they live are never talked about. The Muslims who contribute greatly to the welfare and social wellbeing of their communities are never showcased. The Muslims who found non-denominational aid agencies and support them with their own funds are never even mentioned. You and people like you just see what you want to see; you see what puts Islam in its most brutal light and conveniently ignore or are blind to everything else. I am as appalled by the acts of the Saudi government as any one else. More to the point, I am **ashamed** that the Saudi government perpetuate such things in the name of Islam. I do not agree one iota with what they do, and I know many other Muslims who feel the same. To tar all of us with the same brush is as if I tar all Christians with the brush of “You’re all like Fred Phelps and his ilk”, i.e. wrong, stupid and the actions of a moron. **Darryl Lict** : Islam in its spirit is not misogynistic, there are however, certain interpretations of Islam that are, much like there are interpretations of Christianity that could be considered so. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/72 "2007-03-07T10:10:48Z")
Sharia Law specifies barbaric punishments but not all aspects of Sharia Law are enforced by all Islamic societies. Most often it is the [Hadd offenses](http://www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,6512,777972,00.html) that are not impleneted. > [@](#): > > Within sharia law, there is a specific set of offences known as the Hadd offences. These are crimes punished by specific penalties, such as stoning, lashes or the severing of a hand. The penalties for Hadd offences are not universally adopted as law in Islamic countries. > > Some countries, such as Saudi Arabia, claim to live under pure sharia law and enforce the penalties for Hadd offences. In others, such as Pakistan, the penalties have not been enforced. The majority of Middle Eastern countries, including Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon and Syria, have not adopted Hadd offences as part of their state laws. > > Hadd offences carry specific penalties, set by the Koran and by the prophet Mohammed. These include unlawful sexual intercourse (outside marriage); false accusation of unlawful intercourse; the drinking of alcohol; theft; and highway robbery. Sexual offences carry a penalty of stoning to death or flogging while theft is punished with cutting off a hand. [What is Sharia Law? - from freemuslims.org](http://www.freemuslims.org/document.php?id=41) who say this about themselves. > [@](#): > > The Free Muslims Coalition is a nonprofit organization made up of American Muslims and Arabs of all backgrounds who feel that religious violence and terrorism have not been fully rejected by the Muslim community in the post 9-11 era. > > The Free Muslims was created to eliminate broad base support for Islamic extremism and terrorism and to strengthen secular democratic institutions in the Middle East and the Muslim World by supporting Islamic reformation efforts. > > The Free Muslims promotes a modern secular interpretation of Islam which is peace-loving, democracy-loving and compatible with other faiths and beliefs. The Free Muslims’ efforts are unique; it is the only mainstream American-Muslim organization willing to attack extremism and terrorism unambiguously. Unfortunately most other Muslim leaders believe that in terrorist organizations, the end justifies the means. > [@](#): > > What does " Sharia Law" mean? In whatever way we define the word “Law” it ultimately means the logical application of conscience. The word “Sharia” literally means “the path on sand created by camels walking to water-spots” but spiritually it means guidance. Islam initially revolutionized women’s rights by taking the first steps in that desert society by banning female-infanticide, preventing forcing of women into unwanted marriages, allowing women to retain their fathers’ names after marriage, permitting women to be witnesses (albeit their testimony counted as half of a man’s) and establishing their ownership rights to property and their income. All of these advances in women’s rights occurred in the Middle East when Europe was in the midst of the Dark Ages. > > Sharia laws were created to rule the vast expanding Muslim empire after 200 years of Prophet’s death. In the 7-8th century, disciples of four Islamic jurists codified the laws in their four respective Masters’ names according to their personal understanding of the Qura’an and Prophet’s examples. Thus the term “Fiqh” emerged, which literally means human understanding. Their codification is divided in two sections: Hudud and Ta’zir. The word Hudud comes from Hadd, which means limit. The Hudud laws are mostly penal and include stoning to death or cutting hands of thieves. These are considered beyond human authority to change. As Mawdudi, the father of modern Political Islam notes: > > “Where an explicit command of God or His Prophet already exists, no Muslim leader or legislature, or any religious scholar can form an independent judgment not even all the Muslims of the world put together, have any right to make least alteration to it”. > > Source: Islamic Law and Constitution - Maolana Mawdudi. > > Believing so is regarded as alliance to Islam itself. All books on Sharia law univocally maintain this dictum. > > Yet Sharia is not merely a codification of laws. It is the main pillar of Islamic theocracy. To its followers it is God’s divine command to establish a global Islamic State in order to apply Sharia. In that sense, Sharia is the constitution of the institution of Political Islam, which is defined by its founding father, Maolana Mawdudi (1903-1971) as: - > > “Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere in the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and program of Islam�.. If the Muslim Party commands adequate resources it will eliminate un-Islamic governments and establish the power of Islamic governments in their stead.” - > > Source: Jihad In Islam–Maolana Mawdudi. > > This may be taken as an informal declaration of war against all the world’s non-Muslims to establish a global Islamic theocracy by defeating secular democracy. Mawdudi was the first person to fuse the century-old philosophy of Political Islam with modern democracy in 1941. Sixty-three years later his voice resonates today throughout the world including major European cities with the promise of a “Clash of Civilizations”. > [@](#): > > Modern laws are based on human rights. Sharia however is based on perceived duties to God. In Sharia there is hardly any distinction between crime and sin. Social obligations are fused and confused with worship of the Creator. Political Islam, the main torchbearer of Sharia, was born out of a misleading conviction of the political dimensions of Muslim-empire with Islamic faith system. It integrated political events of Muslims with Islam itself. It is important to note that in the ongoing debates on Sharia in numerous articles books and interviews, Political Islamists make only sweeping comments. Quoting the actual Sharia laws are carefully avoided. As examples are better than explanations, here are a few laws on women’s rights and human rights from Islamic world’s most authentic sources namely: - (A) Umdat Al Salik, Imam Shafi’i, one of Islam’s four foremost Jurists in 7th century. (B) Hedaya of Imam Abu Hanifa, one of Islam’s four foremost Jurists in 7th century. (C) Text of Pakistan’s Hudood Law. (D) Penal Law of Islam (E) Sharia the Islamic Law - Dr. Abdur Rahman Doi and (F) Islamic Laws - Ayatollah Seestani. > > 1. A Muslim cannot be put to death for the murder of an unbeliever. (According to clause #14 of Prophet’s Medina-Charter, proudly claimed by Sharia-proponents as “The First Written Constitution in the World”. > > 2. A Muslim man is allowed to beat his wife or wives. - Qura’anic dictum. > > 3. A Muslim man is allowed to have four wives at one time. - Qura’anic dictum > > 4. A Muslim man can divorce his wife or wives instantaneously. Then he can marry a new set of wives and continue the cycle. - Corollary of Qura’anic dictum. > > 5. A Muslim woman must pay money to the husband by court orders to have the marriage dissolved. - Faulty human development on Qura’anic dictum.. > > 6. If a divorced couple wants to remarry each other, the wife must marry another person, must have complete sex with him and must be divorced by him willingly. - Qura’anic dictum. > > 7. The evidence required in a case of adultery is that of four Muslim adult men - Faulty human development on Qura’anic dictum. > > 8. Women’s testimony is not accepted in cases of adultery or in any capital offence. - Faulty human development. > > 9. Evidence of a female singer and slave (male or female) is not admissible. - Faulty human development. > > 10. Testimony of a non-Muslim that has been punished for false accusation is inadmissible. If s/he later becomes a Muslim, her/his evidence is then admissible. -Faulty human development. > > 11. The Judge of the Court shall be a Muslim. The Judge may be a non-Muslim only if the accused is a non-Muslim. -Faulty human development. > > 12. Adoption is not allowed in Sharia. - Faulty human development on Qura’anic dictum. > > 13. Custody of children goes to mother as long as the kids need care, normally 9 years for boys and 7 for girls, after which the father takes over. But if the mother does not pray or gets married, the kids immediately go to the father. - Faulty human development. > > 14. Women inherit half of men. - Faulty human development on Qura’anic dictum.. > > 15. Women’s witness is half of men’s in business transactions. - Faulty human development on Qura’anic dictum.. > > 16. If a woman is killed, the blood money (the money a killer has to pay to the family of the killed on demand to get acquitted) is half of that of a Muslim man. - Faulty human development on Qura’anic dictum. > > 17. Apostates (Muslims who leave Islam) automatically get death penalty. If not available for killing, their marriage is dissolved and they cannot inherit from Muslim parents or children. - Faulty human development on Qura’anic dictum. > > 18. Muslim men can marry Christian and Jews women but Muslim women can marry only a Muslim man. - Faulty human development on Qura’anic dictum. > > 19. A Muslim virgin cannot marry without permission of her male guardian.- Faulty human development on Qura’anic dictum. > > 20. A man can marry a woman for a fixed time, from few hours to several years (Mu’ta Marriage, - Sharia of Shia sect.). Rich men from the Middle East travel to Southern India to take advantage of this law on financially poor women, so do rich Iranian men on their women. The misery of those women and children born out of this practice are beyond comprehension. - Faulty human development. > > Although full with pro-women advices, it is difficult to find pro-women laws in Sharia. There is no punishment for violating the pro-women advices either. So, in case of conflict of interest, law overrules advice. In that sense it perfectly represent strong patriarchy. Obviously, what Dr. Hisham Kamali, one of strongest authorities on Sharia suggested in his voluminous “Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence” has never been taken care of, quote- “I have consequently commented on the nature of the challenge that Muslim scholars and jurists must take up if the methodology of Usul-al-Fiqh and Ijtihad are to be revitalized and integrated into the process of law and government in modern times”. > > It is strange that without taking the burden of the challenge Political Islam acts a copycat of the past and tries to impose Sharia without updating. Once updated, Sharia might be very similar to existing laws of secular democratic countries. Muslims are not alone regarding objection to few laws such as same-sex marriage or abortion; some non-Muslims share the same vision. It is indeed surprising that Political Islamists remain vague about explaining how to integrate “Islamic teaching” in universal legal matters. They never point out which Western Law is against Islamic teaching and why. Dr. Hisham Kamali showed the serious and huge work done in 7-8th centuries to build Islamic Jurisprudence. But at the end it does not meet justice to humanity in general and women rights in particular. It is like the huge fifty thousand pages research-paper of a medicine that has serious and malignant side effects. This by and large backs up my understanding. Full Sharia Law is full of barbaric stuff stemming from the twin pillars of the Koran and the life of Mohammed with what can be argued as ‘faulty human development’ so coded in over the centuries in the devlopment of Sharia that it is hard to seperate now from the original message of Islam. To the extent that an Islamic country is adapting to the modern secular world of equality and human rights it does not codify some aspects of sharia law into its legal system and we can only encourage the seed kernels of change that some very marginal Islamic scholars and groups see as a basis for fundamental change. [The many faces of sharia](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/621126.stm) > [@](#): > > (N)ot all Muslim societies prevent politics from interfering with the purity of Sharia. > > "In Malaysia for example, you have a completely different situation. > > "Although the majority there is Muslim, the society itself is very cosmopolitan. > > “There are a lot of non-Muslims. And of course the country is economically very successful as well. So it has a completely different set of political social and economic dynamics, and they dictate a completely different interpretation of the law.” > > Applied fully, the Sharia extends well beyond the sphere of criminal justice. It is a code for living that all Muslims should adhere to, including prayers, fasting and donations to the poor. > > Women must cover themselves, and the sexes are frequently segregated. In effect, the Koran becomes a country’s constitution. > > Ahmed Sani, the governor of Zamfara, referring to this wider role of the Sharia, says: “There’ll be no stealing or corruption, and people’s mental and spiritual wellbeing is going to be encouraged.” > > But such wellbeing is, of course, open to argument. > > Iran’s Shi’ite Islamic revolution in 1979 led the way to a particular version of Sharia to which even many Muslims do not conform. > > The “Hadd” penal code of unalterable punishments for certain crimes was firmly applied. That some Islamic legal systems do not fully implement Sharia is good. But Sharia Law, in its full uncompromising form, does not conform with western notions of equality and human rights. But in this particular case - the extension of Sharia laws of evidence that devalue a woman’s uncorroberated testimony and so makes rape adultery - I can only find this. [Sharia Law, adultery and rape](http://www.ishr.org/activities/campaigns/stoning/adultery.htm) > [@](#): > > There are different interpretations and applications of shari’ah in the four different Sunni schools of law. By far not every Muslim country applies the most severe regulations of shari’ah. However, the increasing number of states that are introducing shari’ah law into their jurisdiction, such as in the Northern states of the federal state of Nigeria, is alarming. > > \ > > In cases of adultery, shari’ah resorts to particularly drastic measures. Rape creates an especially difficult burden of proof for the victim. Shari’ah law only provides for punishment in cases of adultery, if both parties admit to have committed the “crime”. If this is not the case, four independent witnesses have to be found; however, the witnesses must be male. In cases of rape, shari’ah rules that a rapist is to be punished with 100 lashes, if unmarried, or with death by stoning, if married, since this would then constitute adultery. > > A pregnancy as a result of rape first of all counts as evidence of adultery committed by the woman. The rape victim then has to prove that she really was raped. In case the man - which is very likely - denies that he has raped the woman, the woman has to name four male witnesses to prove the rape. In case the woman does not find these four male witnesses - which again is very likely - she will be charged with slander. > > For the crime of slander, shari’ah prescribes a punishment of 80 lashes. On top of that, the woman will be charged with adultery, and is thus threatened with the death penalty, if she is married. In case, she is unmarried, the “adultery” counts as immoral behaviour and is punished with 100 lashes. This is at least what the criminal code of January 2000 of the Nigerian state Zamfara says. > The victim carries the burden of proof > > In the case of rape it may thus happen - and in most cases this is what seems to happen - that the victim has to prove that she was raped. One can argue about moral attitudes. In our world it sometimes, too, is difficult to find a consensus of what is right and what is wrong. In the West, too, until a couple of years ago, a rape victim had difficulties to assert herself in court. As in: She must have provoked it with her behaviour. Here, too, there are contentious issues concerning the burden of proof and the rule of presumed innocence to the disadvantage of the victim. However, this does not lead to the death penalty for the women. And even, if one believes that s/he has the right to judge over the morality of someone else, the type of punishment, i.e. death by stoning, remains absolutely unacceptable. Regardless of the fact that it should be the rapist who should be punished in the first place, and not vice versa. In the end I feel religions are what religions do. Some islamic societies choose to ignore aspects of their religion, some don’t. In all its extant forms sharia law is incompatible with my notions of human rights and secularism and I have no trouble at all condemning any legal system based on full sharia law as backward and barbaric. And for the rest - I welcome their hesitant half-steps away from this barbarism and hope they go the whole hog and throw the whole concept of sharia law into the dustbin of history. But as it is fundamental to islam I feel the best we can hope for is the kind of compromises we see in Indonesia and Egypt. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/73 "2007-03-07T10:30:36Z")
In follow up. The big question is - can there be a ‘moderate’ sharia? For what it’s worth here is a discussion of a book on the subject. The article comes down firmly on the side of those who argue that ‘moderating’ influences are not intrinsic to Sharia but come from the outside. Whatever the biases and conclusions the article is interesting though. [“Extreme” sharia](http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19722) > [@](#): > > Paul Marshall defines Sharia, quite simply and correctly, as “Islamic law.” When asked in a recent FrontPage interview to explain the difference between Sharia and the “extreme Sharia” to which he refers in the title of his new book, Radical Islam’s Rules: The Worldwide Spread of Extreme Sharia, he responded: “Muslims mean very different things when they use the term. Sharia’s root meaning is ‘the way’ or ‘path to the water’ and to most Muslims it implies doing God’s will, not necessarily imitating the Taliban.” And these different things are not necessarily compatible: “In > Indonesia,” according to Marshall, “polls show 67 percent support for ‘Sharia’ but only 7 percent objecting to a woman head of state. There it seems to means something like the American polling term ‘moral values.’ Polling in Iraq shows a similar pattern: 80% support for Sharia combined with 80% support for equality of men and women.” > > It was this elasticity in the popular understanding of the word that led Marshall to coin the term “extreme Sharia.” “To many Muslims,” he explained, “criticism of Sharia as such sounds strange because, much as they might disagree with stoning adulterous women or cutting off the hands of thieves, the word implies ‘justice’ or ‘goodness.’ So I use the phrase ‘extreme Sharia’ to describe the laws implemented by the Saudis, Iran and others throughout the world.” > > Very well. But does “extreme Sharia” actually exist as an entity distinct from the Sharia that simply upholds justice and goodness? Or, despite the connotations the word may have for common people, does it actually have a quite specific meaning in Islamic tradition — a meaning that would of necessity come into play whenever Sharia was implemented? Marshall and the other contributors to Radical Islam’s Rules imply the existence of a form of Sharia that upholds justice and goodness without resorting to draconian punishments. > > \ > > It would seem from this not only that “extreme Sharia” is Sharia purged of salutary non-Sharia influences from the West, but a parochial, virulent form of the law devised by fanatical Saudi Wahhabis. But do the other major schools of Sunni Sharia jurisprudence (the Maliki, Hanafi, and Shafi’i schools), as well as the Shi’ite Jafari school, actually reject the elements of Sharia that Marshall specifies as particularly characteristic of the “extreme” version? In the FrontPage interview he enumerates as elements of “extreme” Sharia “stoning adulterous women or cutting off the hands of thieves,” as well as restrictions on “religious freedom and freedom of conscience,” “the status of women,” and “the legal process, especially equality before the law.” But unfortunately, these are not matters on which the various schools of Islamic jurisprudence disagree. While a case may be made that the Saudi Hanbalis and Iranian Shi’ites are virtually alone in their determination to implement and enforce such strictures in the modern age, it is misleading — extremely misleading — to suggest that such elements are inventions of Saudi Wahhabis, and do not exist in mainstream Sharia jurisprudence. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/74 "2007-03-07T11:52:34Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Yeah, and _I_ was the one who brought up the Catholic abuse scandal in this thread in the first place. So I rather think I have a pretty good insight into why the issue was raised in this thread, at least initially. [/quote] You also brought up reading comprehension. My comments were about “the Catholic abuse **threads** ”, not about Catholic abuse posts in this thread. If you were to diagram the phrase I wrote, “threads” would be on the top line. “The” would modify “threads”. “Catholic” would also modify “threads”. And “abuse” would modify “Catholic”. > [@](#): > > Yes, it does support my position quite nicely, doesn’t it? It supports the position that someone felt obliged to offset a slam against the Qur’an with a slam against the Bible. Unless I convinced you of my position, then it doesn’t support yours. > [@](#): > > You certainly can’t seperate the Saudi government from Islam, but Islam is much, much larger than the Saudi government. But this case (the OP’s topic) isn’t. The Saudi government applied Islamic law — its law and its official religion. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/75 "2007-03-07T11:55:40Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] You _can_ seperate the Saudi government from Islam. [/quote] Really? Go try, and let me know how it went. > [@](#): > > Idiot. It’s “separate”. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/76 "2007-03-07T12:17:55Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Really? Go try, and let me know how it went. [/QUOTE] It went really badly because you are obviously correct. According to [The State Department](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3584.htm) > [@](#): > > GOVERNMENT AND POLITICAL CONDITIONS > The central institution of Saudi Arabian Government is the monarchy. The Basic Law adopted in 1992 declared that Saudi Arabia is a monarchy ruled by the sons and grandsons of King Abd Al Aziz Al Saud, and that the Holy Qur’an is the constitution of the country, which is governed on the basis of Islamic law (Shari’a). There are no political parties or national elections; however, the country held its first municipal elections in 2005. The king’s powers are limited because he must observe the Shari’a and other Saudi traditions. He also must retain a consensus of the Saudi royal family, religious leaders (ulema), and other important elements in Saudi society. The leading members of the royal family choose the king from among themselves with the subsequent approval of the ulema. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/77 "2007-03-07T12:38:37Z")
[QUOTE=Angua] Islam in its spirit is not misogynistic, there are however, certain interpretations of Islam that are, much like there are interpretations of Christianity that could be considered so. [/QUOTE] Hah, well maybe you wouldn’t be so keen to defend Islam if you were female and came from an Islamic background… …oh. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/78 "2007-03-07T14:31:56Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] You are _so_ missing my point. That thing you just said: “the Saudi government does not represent all of Islam” - THAT was my point. I don’t know how you missed it. I really thought I was being pretty fucking obvious. [/QUOTE] Nope, not missing your point at all. That statement is, I hope, incredibly obvious. But you were calling **Lib** an idiot for calling people’s attention to the nature of the Saudi regime, which is not a secular regime that is a follower of a certain sect of Islam, but exists entirely as a representative of that sect, and claims (wrongly) to be a representative of Islam as a whole. Obviously you are right in saying the Saudi government doesn’t represent Islam as a whole, but that wasn’t the point, I think, that **Lib** was making. My post was a result of your (all too common) throwing out of insults at people. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/79 "2007-03-07T14:36:22Z")
[QUOTE=Gary Kumquat] Hah, well maybe you wouldn’t be so keen to defend Islam if you were female and came from an Islamic background… …oh. [/QUOTE] Yeah **Angua**! How dare you come in here and be all Muslim and female and reasonable and stuff! Can’t you see that some people are busy trying to paint all Muslims as barbarians? Stop ruining things with facts! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837/80 "2007-03-07T15:02:36Z")
[QUOTE=Angua] To tar all of us with the same brush is as if I tar all Christians with the brush of “You’re all like Fred Phelps and his ilk”, i.e. wrong, stupid and the actions of a moron. [/QUOTE] This is exactly the kind of disengenuous stupidity I was referring to. First, no one, certainly not I, claimed that all Muslims are murderous barbaric shitheads. No, that was a leap YOU made. I firmly believe that there are millions of peace-loving Muslims. The point is that every time we here about some terrorist act by Islamic fundamentalists or the barbarism of their laws beiing carried out, we here the apologists say, “Oh, but it’s just a few extremists”. Well, how many bunches of “few extrenmists” have to act before you see some connection between murderous, barbaric Islamic extremists and ISLAM? Sheeze, this gets tiring. Wake the fuck up. Regarding your Phelps point, when other people and groups are routinely popping up chanting his vile stupidity, you may have a point. Until then, he stands out as a lone asshole of the highest order. This contrast actually help[s make my point, so thnak you for helping. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/raped-woman-sentenced-to-90-lashes/394837.md?page=5)