# Rare Earth elements **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 4, 2025, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883 "2025-02-04T18:31:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/1 "2025-02-04T18:31:59Z")
Prompted by the headline > **[Ukraine open to exchanging minerals for US military aid, says Zelenskyy](https://uk.news.yahoo.com/trump-wants-rare-earth-resources-122134563.html)** > > Germany’s Olaf Scholz calls US president’s plan ‘selfish’ but reports suggest idea may have come from Kyiv but let’s not get into Trump and politics if we can avoid it. As I understand it, the ‘rare earth’ elements are not really that rare in terms of absolute percentages. And surely in a country as large and geologically diverse as the US, there must be viable sources of them? So why isn’t the US extracting these domestically? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/2 "2025-02-04T18:36:03Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > So why isn’t the US extracting these domestically? We are – the U.S. is the second-biggest extractor of rare-earth elements, after China (see the bar chart at the bottom right of the graphic below). However, my understanding is that, as a group, rare-earth elements are _not_ evenly distributed geographically. This article indicates that something like three-quarters of the total _ **reserves** _ of rare-earth elements are believed to be located in four countries: China, Vietnam, India, and Brazil. [![](https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Rare-Earth-Elements.jpg) ](https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Rare-Earth-Elements.jpg) [https://www.visualcapitalist.com/rare-earth-elements-where-in-the-world-are-they/](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/rare-earth-elements-where-in-the-world-are-they/) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/3 "2025-02-04T18:39:31Z")
There’s an economics thing to it - if a resource can be purchased as an import at a sufficiently low cost, it makes sense to use up _everybody else’s_ supply before your own. Also the names of these elements need sorting out. Yttrium, Terbium, Erbium and Ytterbium are all named after the village of Ytterby in Sweden, but it’s a bit silly. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/4 "2025-02-04T18:43:57Z")
They aren’t incredibly rare in existence on earth, but they are costly to mine and refine. In addition to limited locations where they are found in reasonable quantities they are widely dispersed in the ground like gold so that many tons of material must be mined followed by expensive refining techniques. Until the relatively recent demand for neodymium and others use in powerful magnets the market didn’t justify the process here in the US. There have been efforts in recent year to extract these elements here. Greenland is also a possible major source. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/5 "2025-02-04T18:47:10Z")
They are also an ecological nightmare to mine cleanly and produce into useable products. Which is why China is the largest supplier, they dont give a damn about pollution. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/6 "2025-02-04T18:50:32Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > However, my understanding is that, as a group, rare-earth elements are _not_ evenly distributed geographically. This article indicates that something like three-quarters of the total _ **reserves** _ of rare-earth elements are believed to be located in four countries: China, Vietnam, India, and Brazil. But given that they are not actually ‘rare’ in absolute terms, it seems a bit unlikely to me that they would be concentrated in just a few parts of the world? What geological processes would cause that? Possibly ‘known reserves’ should perhaps be revisited as ‘known _discovered_ reserves’? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/7 "2025-02-04T18:50:34Z")
For a minor nitpick, yttrium technically isn’t a rare earth (at least where the common definition of rare earth is synonymous with the lanthanides). Same with scandium. From an actually doing things with them point of view, they are. ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/8 "2025-02-04T18:54:52Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > They are also an ecological nightmare to mine cleanly and produce into useable products. Which is why China is the largest supplier, they dont give a damn about pollution. That may have a lot to do with it. Though is the mining process much more polluting than, say, iron or copper, which are extracted on a much larger scale? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/9 "2025-02-04T18:56:36Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > . In addition to limited locations where they are found in reasonable quantities they are widely dispersed in the ground like gold so that many tons of material must be mined followed by expensive refining techniques. Until the relatively recent demand for neodymium and others use in powerful magnets the market didn’t justify the process here in the US. They have some other uses besides magnets. Luminescent materials, quantum dots, things like that. And the classic MRI contrast agents. Especially since nobody really cares about heavy metals in your quantum dot TV (CdSe/ZnS) but do for applications like bioimaging. But yes, still easier to source from China for smaller quantities. At least for now. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/10 "2025-02-04T19:00:17Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > But given that they are not actually ‘rare’ in absolute terms, it seems a bit unlikely to me that they would be concentrated in just a few parts of the world? What geological processes would cause that? I think a lot of heavy elements are concentrated in a few locations on earth. Gold is everywhere, but in minute quantities. You can find gold in a bag of play sand from the Home Depot but not enough to make it worth extracting. Other elements are far less abundant like platinum. Tin is also found only in a few locations world wide. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/11 "2025-02-04T19:09:14Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > So why isn’t the US extracting these domestically? > [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > is the mining process much more polluting than, say, iron or copper, Not so much the mining process, though neither **[copper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_copper_production)** nor **[iron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_iron_ore_production)** are mined domestically in the USA in ginormous amounts, but what really pollutes is the chemical separation of Yttrium, Terbium, Erbium, Ytterbium, Neodym, Dysprosium and whatever they are called. They tend to come all together (well, not all, but usually several) and are chemically similar, so that it is a PITA to obtain them in the required purity for many uses. China does not care very much for the environement, it seems, and has been flooding the market with dumping prices for years, probably for geopolitical reasons. Ramping up production in the rest of the world takes time and a lot of investments. Any place that is far away ( → NIMBY) and thinly populated is good for that kind of mining. I believe Australia is a good candidate to step in if China makes too much trouble, but it will take time. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/12 "2025-02-04T19:18:02Z")
In my experience most rare earths are eventually supplied as either the nitrate or the oxide, though some have other ligands. Large amounts of nitric acid is not exactly friendly, and here is a document on separation. [https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1363891](https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1363891) ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/13 "2025-02-04T19:36:51Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > In my experience most rare earths are eventually supplied as either the nitrate or the oxide, though some have other ligands. Large amounts of nitric acid is not exactly friendly, and here is a document on separation. I understand that the separation is difficult because of the chemical similarities. But in terms of overall quantity of produced pollution, how does this compare with other industrial processes of much larger scale materials? I’m still a bit puzzled why the US doesn’t just become independent for these elements? ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/14 "2025-02-04T20:08:36Z")
I don’t really know how to answer that. Environmental considerations aside (and have you ever seen the damage from any form of mining?) why use up your non-renewable resources when you can trade other goods or money for them? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/15 "2025-02-04T20:25:29Z")
> [@Pardel-Lux](#): > > China does not care very much for the environement, it seems, and has been **flooding the market with dumping prices** for years, probably for geopolitical reasons. That is the way capitalism works: as long as it is cheaper and it is not forbidden it will be done and dependencies ensue. [China has flexed its muscles with rare earths sales bans recently](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_earths_trade_dispute), it is one trump (ha!) card they have when the tariffs get rough. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/16 "2025-02-04T20:26:12Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > But in terms of overall quantity of produced pollution, how does this compare with other industrial processes of much larger scale materials? Refining rare-earth elements apparently produces some very nasty by-products: > [@](#): > > The chemical properties of the rare earth elements make them difficult to separate from surrounding materials and from one another. These qualities also make them difficult to purify. Current production methods require a lot of ore and generate a great deal of harmful waste to extract just small amounts of rare earth metals. Waste from the processing methods include radioactive water, toxic fluorine, and acids. > **[History and Future of Rare Earth Elements](https://www.sciencehistory.org/education/classroom-activities/role-playing-games/case-of-rare-earth-elements/history-future/)** > > The term "rare earth" was coined when an unusual black rock was unearthed by a miner in Ytterby, Sweden, in 1788. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/17 "2025-02-04T21:38:11Z")
But to try to help answer a question on sourcing, there are multiple companies in the US and Europe that actually do the manufacturing work. And yes, they source from China but also from other countries and at least some of them with an eye to reduce China sourcing. Obviously it’s hard to get any specific information on a company’s supplier from outside and I’m guessing based on public information as regards to products and reported capabilities. > **[Local company Blue Line wants to help U.S. become less reliant on China for...](https://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/local-company-blue-line-wants-to-help-us-become-less-reliant-on-china-for-rare-earths)** > > SAN ANTONIO - A local company is poised to become a major player in the international rare earths market. Blue Line Corp, headquartered on East Commerce St. on the city's Eastside, has entered into a memorandum of understanding with Australia's... I believe that company did get that expansion up and running. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2025, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/18 "2025-02-04T23:06:09Z")
Also don’t forget about the labor costs. Labor is much cheaper in China than in the US. Bottom line is that we could produce all we need; it’d just cost way more than what we get from China. It’d probably still cost more than what we get from China, even with heavy tariffs on the Chinese product. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2025, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/19 "2025-02-05T01:42:58Z")
This is a very old and dim memory, but I seem to recall that at one point the US did have a refinery and it was sold lock, stock¸ and barrel to China because it was much cheaper to operate there. There may also have been environmental considerations. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2025, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883/20 "2025-02-05T01:55:41Z")
Yes, it was the GM division called Magnaquech back in the late 80s in Anderson Indiana. I worked on scaling up the prototype chemical reactors that refined the ore into ingots of Fe-Nd-B that could then be remelted and formed into powder for magnets into full production capacity vessels They used vacuum chambers and a lot of molten calcium chloride as part of the reaction purification process. The waste product from this was toxic due to heavy metals. The team I was working with went to China to observe how they produced it and were in shock. They described it as a controlled explosion that just released toxic waste into the atmosphere and ground water. Their report back to GM management was that they could not compete with this, and the recommendation was to sell their business to cut their losses. They sold the refining process and the HIPA magnet production presses to China, and it ended the USAs involvement in mass-produced rare earth magnets. To this day, I could still build a factory line to refine the ore, a line that would lose money that no one wants. Back then no one imagined that China would be the power house they are today [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rare-earth-elements/1013883.md?page=2)