# Rat Empathy **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 6, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rat-empathy/643232 "2012-12-06T21:10:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rat-empathy/643232/21 "2012-12-07T16:51:15Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > They are really really smart too. As a Psych major, I had to run my share of rat experiments and would strongly agree they are very smart. However, mention this to the average non-rat fan and you will not get much agreement. I had a friend in Berlin who had several pet rats that he would let run free in his apartment for a few hours each day. It was fun to be there as they were smart and funny! He had trained them they could go anywhere except on his small white carpet in the living room. The rats would come to the edge of the carpet, put a little paw on the carpet to “test” my friend’s reaction and - when he would make a quick glance or start to move in that direction - they would scamper away and I could swear they were laughing. The rats thought this game was great fun. He treated them well and all he had to do was snap his fingers and they would all come running and climb up his legs and arms and be all over him…quite cute and very touching in a way. You could tell those rats really loved this guy. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rat-empathy/643232/22 "2012-12-07T18:10:48Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > You could tell those rats really loved this guy. I used to have three pet rats. They were sweethearts. They are smart and they have unique personalities. They’re kind of a PITA to take care of, though. This is why I ultimately ended up with the most low-maintenance pet on earth: the house cat.\* **babygoat** , please tell me the text on that newspaper page is photoshopped. \*little did I know ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rat-empathy/643232/23 "2012-12-07T18:44:37Z")
> [@DMark](#): > > …The rats would come to the edge of the carpet, put a little paw on the carpet to “test” my friend’s reaction and - when he would make a quick glance or start to move in that direction - they would scamper away and I could swear they were laughing. The rats thought this game was great fun… I’ve seen video of rats playing with and being tickled by humans and the researchers stated that they discovered that rats have laughter. It’s just too high-pitched for humans to hear. [Here it is.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-admRGFVNM) ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rat-empathy/643232/24 "2012-12-07T18:46:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Learning how to open a cage is a pretty long lasting “reflex” to not have something sustaining it, like say emotion. I didn’t say opening the cage was reflexive, I’m saying the instinct to help is. > [@AHunter3](#): > > I take it for granted that cooperation (hence kindness and doing well by each other etc) are hard-wired behaviors. > > Consider this as an interesting bias: competitive, aggressive behaviors are treated as inevitably part of our nature (or the nature of other critters); but cooperative, kind behaviors are treated as some kind of thin weak veneer we attempt to paste over the former, and this is used to argue that any attempt to live with each other based on cooperation and sharing and freedom will inevitably fail because we’re hard-wired to want our jackboots on someone else’s neck. > Individuals will attend to their own survival and will often kill others of their own kind as need be to ensure it. That’s evolutionary. But individuals will also attend to each other and thus contribute to group survival, and will sometimes sacrifice themselves to accomplish that contribution. That’s _also_ evolutionary. Your genes are more likely to get passed along if other members of your species or herd or family are inclined to help you out altruistically. Right. I can’t tell if we’re on the same page or not, but I suppose where some folks and I separate is I’m not so sure this nature to cooperate means necessarily that the animal _feels_ bad. Or maybe we have different ideas of what feelings, emotions, or empathy means. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rat-empathy/643232/25 "2012-12-07T20:10:46Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I suppose where some folks and I separate is I’m not so sure this nature to cooperate means necessarily that the animal _feels_ bad. Or maybe we have different ideas of what feelings, emotions, or empathy means. Not really following. I assume there is consciousness (yes?) and emotion (yes?) among animals. I’m not sure what it “means” at the annelid-worm level of existence, never having been an annelid myself, but rodents seem pretty much part of the continuum I’m familiar with. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rat-empathy/643232/26 "2012-12-08T21:38:27Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Not really following. I assume there is consciousness (yes?) and emotion (yes?) among animals. I’m not sure what it “means” at the annelid-worm level of existence, never having been an annelid myself, but rodents seem pretty much part of the continuum I’m familiar with. I’m just not sure that because another animal behaves in a way we do (helping) means they did because of the exact reason (because they feel bad). If a rat bites the head off another animal that poses no obvious threat, is the rat feeling wrath? If it seeks a treat in the maze as opposed to the escape, is it greed? I’m pretty sure cooperation is embedded into animal nature, but I’m not sure the rat is actually feeling, “Aww, poor guy.” Could be, or could be just a reaction to instinct. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rat-empathy/643232/27 "2012-12-08T21:52:47Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Mental illness kept all the people on the platform from trying to help, or even getting close enough to appear in the photograph, for the entire 22 seconds before the guy was hit? Mental illness made the paper publish that shot? > > That’s a lot of mental illness. Based on the article I read, it seemed there were many people trying to help. They were trying to get the attention of the driver and trying to get the man to realize he was in danger and walk toward the platform. I’m sure we would all like to believe that we would hurl ourselves in the path of an oncoming train to save an innocent stranger in peril, but I think we’re mostly deluding ourselves. The guy was wandering around in the middle of the tracks, most likely intoxicated, before he realized he needed to try to scramble up to safety, so the window of time in which someone could have attempted to pull him up was incredibly brief. The New York Post thing, however, was inexcusable. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rat-empathy/643232/28 "2012-12-09T06:25:38Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > I’m just not sure that because another animal behaves in a way we do (helping) means they did because of the exact reason (because they feel bad). If a rat bites the head off another animal that poses no obvious threat, is the rat feeling wrath? If it seeks a treat in the maze as opposed to the escape, is it greed? I’m pretty sure cooperation is embedded into animal nature, but I’m not sure the rat is actually feeling, “Aww, poor guy.” Could be, or could be just a reaction to instinct. Gotcha. I agree that watching another species’ behavior and projecting onto it what we thing we’d most likely be feeling if it were us in their place isn’t an ideal guide for intuiting what other critters are most likely feeling. It may be the best we’ve got to work with but it’s good to be cautious and remember that they’re foreign to us in many ways. I had a girlfriend who used to serve her puppy refrigerated pureed pumpkin and asserted “she thinks it’s ice cream”. Ignoring the assertion of puppy-opinion itself, that still attributes a complex emotional attitude towards ice cream versus pumpkin that are not likely attitudes in a dog. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rat-empathy/643232.md?page=1)