# Rate Babylon 5 for me **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 26, 2008, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295 "2008-02-26T21:56:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/21 "2008-02-27T14:22:12Z")
While it could be rather epic in places, in others it took itself far too seriously. To get to the good bits, you have to sit through some horrible bits at a ratio of 1:1 for the most part. Having sat through the whole thing once before, I find myself strangely unable to recommend anyone else do the same. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/22 "2008-02-27T15:15:45Z")
Thanks to everyone for the useful feedback. In my youth I read many reams of 1950’s pulp sci-fi, Robert Heinlein and the like. As a sci-fi fan, I will tolerate nearly anything that has spaceships, robots, or sexy aliens. And if it’s even halfway innovative, then I’m absolutely giddy. For me, ST:TNG was tolerable to decent, and I find season 1 of B5 in about the same league. So if later seasons are that much better, then I’ll definitely be plowing forward with it. ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/23 "2008-02-27T15:24:30Z")
[QUOTE=Cosmic Relief] Thanks to everyone for the useful feedback. In my youth I read many reams of 1950’s pulp sci-fi, Robert Heinlein and the like. As a sci-fi fan, I will tolerate nearly anything that has spaceships, robots, or sexy aliens. And if it’s even halfway innovative, then I’m absolutely giddy. For me, ST:TNG was tolerable to decent, and I find season 1 of B5 in about the same league. So if later seasons are that much better, then I’ll definitely be plowing forward with it. [/QUOTE] Once you get into the thick of the series Arc, B5 is fantastic! For the time it was made, it beat Star Trek TNG easy…and DS9. And i liked DS9. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/24 "2008-02-27T16:05:49Z")
[QUOTE=Jolly Roger] Once you get into the thick of the series Arc, B5 is fantastic! For the time it was made, it beat Star Trek TNG easy…and DS9. And i liked DS9. [/QUOTE] The series arc is to be recommended. The later bits that dealt with Earth felt like a bit of an anti-climax, but I suppose were a necessary part of the story, you can’t really have everyone looking fondly into the sunset over a ruined galaxy as if everything is now alright 😉 And I say this disliking story arcs in general, it’s supposedly one that was devised far in advance of the shooting of the series and it sort of shows. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/25 "2008-02-27T16:26:42Z")
The space battles were epic and the show was well plotted and suspensful, but it was flawed by the most portentious dialog ever. A lot of it reminded me of The Sphinx from _Mystery Men_: > [@](#): > > Mr. Furious: Okay, am I the only one who finds these sayings just a little bit formulaic? “If you want to push something down, you have to pull it up. If you want to go left, you have to go right.” It’s… > The Sphinx: Your temper is very quick, my friend. But until you learn to master your rage… > Mr. Furious: …your rage will become your master? That’s what you were going to say. Right? Right? > The Sphinx: Not necessarily. Still, while there are a ton of nits I can pick, it was pretty decent old school space opera. Better than Star Trek, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/26 "2008-02-27T20:39:08Z")
Episodes you can skip in each season without losing anything: Season 2 - _A Spider In The Web, There All The Honor Lies, Knives_ Season 3 - _Exogenesis, Grey 17 Is Missing_ (Gods, skip this episode!) Season 4 - None, really. Season 5 - Episodes 3-10 (the telepath arc), ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/27 "2008-02-27T21:11:53Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] Episodes you can skip in each season without losing anything: Season 3 - _Grey 17 Is Missing_ (Gods, skip this episode!) [/QUOTE] There is no such episode. > [@](#): > > Season 5 - Episodes 3-10 (the telepath arc) There was no season 5, it got cancelled by the network during series 4 and JMS decided that trying to string out the storyline beyond the arc for another year would make a complete mockery of everything he had created for no good purpose and a huge slap in the face to the fans. The cast were in agreement as they all had other lucrative projects to move onto at the time and didn’t want to be involved. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/28 "2008-02-27T21:49:02Z")
The fifth season really isn’t all that different from how it would’ve turned out if the threat of cancellation hadn’t happened. The telepath arc was always planned, although it was supposed to center around Ivanova rather than Lyta. ---
**Author:** ![cbawlmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cbawlmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbawlmer)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/29 "2008-02-27T22:09:42Z")
The telepath arc bugged me, but mostly because of the horrible performance from the actor playing Byron and the actress who played Lyta. I never liked her and her notion that squinting real hard was a great indicator of telepathy. Egads, she’s annoying. If instead it had been Ivanova and, let’s say, a concrete block as Byron, it would have been a lot easier to take. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/30 "2008-02-27T22:10:07Z")
[QUOTE=Illuminatiprimus] There is no such episode. [/QUOTE] _Grey 17 Is Missing_ is missing! (But not missed.) A friend of mine has borrowed my boxed set of the show and is re-watching it, and we discussed some of it over lunch today. We pretty much agree that JMS’s strongest asset was his ability to build worlds and arcs. His biggest weakness seems to be in dialogue, and our current theory is that it was due (at least in part) to his inexperience with the medium. Things that you can get away with in text don’t always carry over–reams of exposition are notoriously painful in television (“A thousand years ago…”). He definitely improved on this as the series progressed, making the later seasons much more enjoyable. My friend suggests that that improvement came at a cost in clarity, principally in the reasons behind events, while I think that we can easily fill in the blanks left by the tighter storytelling. Tangentially, we spoke of a hypothetical SF series with worlds and arcs designed by JMS, and characters and dialogue created by Joss Whedon. We decided that such a thing could never be produced, as the level of Win inherent in it would react like antimatter with the brains of TV execs exposed to it. (Not that that would necessarily be a bad thing, it just wouldn’t get the show on the air.) ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/31 "2008-02-27T23:03:47Z")
[QUOTE=cbawlmer] The telepath arc bugged me, but mostly because of the horrible performance from the actor playing Byron and the actress who played Lyta. [/QUOTE] The thing that really irked me about the telepaths in series 5 was that they asked for sanctuary claiming they could be useful and would work to earn their keep. All well and good you think, it’ll be useful to have them around. Then a situation arises where Sheridan thinks he wants some intelligence gathering group to work for his new alliance and the telepaths would be perfect for it and gets Lyta to go ask them. Byron says no and says “We said we would work to be useful, but we do not wish to be involved in the ugly affairs of governments or the unnatural workings of machines and technology” (or something very similar). I’m sorry, but what exactly did you intend to do to earn your keep then? Weave baskets and tell stories to children? And whilst we’re on this subject what happened to Brother Theo and his monks? They made a big thing of them and then suddenly we never heard from them again. Very strange. It’s probably worth me stating (after all this bitching) that I do actually really like B5, especially series 2-4 as most others have said already. Having rewatched it over xmas I can attest that some of the acting is excruciating and the dialogue laughable (and I would never, NEVER get tired of hitting Marcus in the face with a shovel) but the premise and story arc was brilliant. I can remember some really “Whoa!” moments when I watched it the first time around as a teenager and waited eagerly each week for the next episode. Definitely worth getting into. ---
**Author:** ![Jayn\_Newell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jayn\_Newell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jayn_Newell)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/32 "2008-02-27T23:21:04Z")
It’s a good show, but at points in the middle I was beginning to miss the first season (I love the relationship between Lando and G’Kar–it was nice seeing that return at the end of Season 4). It beats the hell out of any other SF show on TV that I’ve seen–it is far too rare to see overarching plots like B5 has, but it really pulled the show together. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2008, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/33 "2008-02-27T23:25:56Z")
The whole show is worth it just for Ivanova: _And just one more thing. On your trip back I’d like you to take the time to learn the Babylon 5 mantra: ‘Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova’s recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out.’ Babylon Control out. … Civilians!_ 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/34 "2008-02-28T00:33:07Z")
[QUOTE=Illuminatiprimus] I would never, NEVER get tired of hitting Marcus in the face with a shovel [/QUOTE] That’s a shame, he had one of the best lines of the series. > [@](#): > > I used to think that life was unfair. Then I thought, wouldn’t it be much worse, if life were fair, and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them? So, now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/35 "2008-02-28T00:44:38Z")
That’s my favorite line too. He can be pretty annoying, it’s true, but that line makes it all worth it. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/36 "2008-02-28T00:58:58Z")
_Babylon 5_ is much better in the concept than the execution. And JMS (whoops, I mean jms) is the most atrocious professional dialogue writer I can think of, something that is overpowered by his monstrous ego (did he **have** to name the main characters after his initials? Yes. Yes he did.). I liked B5, let there be no doubt, but there were rarely episodes that went by that didn’t make me cringe. I will never forget the “Some people collect stamps. I collect secrets” speech Sheridan gave. :rolleyes: He’s not nearly as clever as he thinks he is. I mean, have you **seen** _The Lost Tales_? Sure, watch it. It’s not fantastic, it’s not bad. It’s good. At least I can stand B5 fans, for the most part, although they get a little starstruck. They don’t hold a candle to the insane Kool-Aid-drinking \*Firefly \* fans, though. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/37 "2008-02-28T01:09:03Z")
Hey! I resemble that remark! ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/38 "2008-02-28T09:52:52Z")
[QUOTE=dangermom] That’s my favorite line too. He can be pretty annoying, it’s true, but that line makes it all worth it. [/QUOTE] Annoying? As a Brit I found his accent and diction to be _excruciating_. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/39 "2008-02-28T14:46:18Z")
[QUOTE=Illuminatiprimus] Annoying? As a Brit I found his accent and diction to be _excruciating_. [/QUOTE] Why? Marcus wasn’t British. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2008, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295/40 "2008-02-28T14:48:57Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] The whole show is worth it just for Ivanova: _And just one more thing. On your trip back I’d like you to take the time to learn the Babylon 5 mantra: ‘Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova’s recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out.’ Babylon Control out. .. Civilians!_ 😃 [/QUOTE] My favorite Ivanova quote: _I am Susan Ivanova. Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart. I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you are ever going to see. God sent me._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-babylon-5-for-me/439295.md?page=3)