# "Rate of abortion is highest in countries where practice is banned" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224 "2012-01-21T16:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/41 "2012-01-23T20:00:34Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > And that pretty much says a mouthful. Ah, so you are in favor of a situation with more rape just so you can call it illegal. Does that mean that, if the proposition in the OP were true, that you would be favor of there being more abortions done so you could call that illegal also? In general, do you think that laws should be intended to reduce the number of criminal acts rather than just punish those who commit them? ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/42 "2012-01-23T21:54:41Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It says that she’s more interested in reducing rape than in punishing rapists. It does? > [@](#): > > What have you got against reducing rape, **OMG**? Nothing. The better question would be what do you have against those who are raped? Because, you know, I’m sure “Well, at least you’re the only one who was raped!” is _very_ consoling to that one individual who is raped. (You’re neither as smart nor witty as you must think you are. Your name fits you perfectly.) > [@Voyager](#): > > Ah, so you are in favor of a situation with more rape just so you can call it illegal. Does that mean that, if the proposition in the OP were true, that you would be favor of there being more abortions done so you could call that illegal also? When you start from a faulty premise, you get nonsensical questions. The proposition in the OP isn’t that making abortion illegal drives the incidence of abortion up. Taken from the link in the OP: > [@](#): > > Experts could not say whether more liberal laws led to fewer procedures, but said good access to birth control in those countries resulted in fewer unwanted pregnancies. > [@](#): > > In general, do you think that laws should be intended to reduce the number of criminal acts rather than just punish those who commit them? Laws should be intended to reduce the number of criminal acts insomuch as the criminal acts in question can be deterred. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/43 "2012-01-23T22:49:19Z")
Perhaps you could tell me how smart and funny I must think I am. Clearly, you have insider information. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/44 "2012-01-24T01:06:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Since when are “anti-abortion movement” and “Christian” synonyms? > > And your post fails completely as a counter to anything I said. Probably because you don’t have any. > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > blah blah blah it fails blah blah blah I’m always right blah blah blah Thank you for underlining the fact that I am right, and you have no counter to it better than childish posts like the above. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/45 "2012-01-24T01:25:56Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > And that pretty much says a mouthful. Well, okay, if you throw some marbles in there, too. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/46 "2012-01-24T02:38:38Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > To abortion. I meant that I can’t imagine that anyone would say that rape should be legal if it could be absolutely proven that legalising it would reduce the number of rapes. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I would. Me too. If it’s absolutely certain that legalizing rape will reduce rapes, count me in. It’s silly to imagine it would, but prove it, and you have my support. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/47 "2012-01-24T02:41:14Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Me too. If it’s absolutely certain that legalizing rape will reduce rapes, count me in. It’s silly to imagine it would, but prove it, and you have my support. I suppose I have to agree too; it’s just hard to imagine how that would actually _work_. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/48 "2012-01-24T02:43:00Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Nothing. The better question would be what do you have against those who are raped? Because, you know, I’m sure “Well, at least you’re the only one who was raped!” is _very_ consoling to that one individual who is raped. Seriously? It’s far more important to prevent rapes than to console those who are raped. I’ll make that trade in a second. My god, what a monstrous opinion. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/49 "2012-01-24T02:45:21Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I suppose I have to agree too; it’s just hard to imagine how that would actually _work_. Yeah, I can’t think of any possible mechanism other than the extraordinarily silly idea that if you never mentioned it to outlaw it no one would even know it was possible! You’re just giving 'em ideas! Yeah, no. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/50 "2012-01-24T03:15:29Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > Laws should be intended to reduce the number of criminal acts insomuch as the criminal acts in question can be deterred. Sure, deterrence is the point of criminal punishment, but the aim is still to reduce the number of bad things from happening. You seem not to support anything that would reduce bad things unless it involved threatening people with punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Paralogic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Paralogic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paralogic)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/51 "2012-01-24T03:26:40Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I read [this article](http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned-6292070.html) which cites a study that suggests places where abortions are illegal actually have more abortions performed (and those abortions are unsafe and dangerous). There’s a recent report in the news on the overpopulation in the Philippines, how the country has failed to match the drastic decrease in abortions and birth rate in neighboring Thailand due to contraceptive education, how the Catholic Church in the Philippines (80% of the population is Catholic and they have high political power) is vehemently and violently against any contraceptive related information passed on to the vast numbers of the poor in the Philippines, and how this hostility towards contraception education is resulting in the suffering of so many people. They don’t get illegal abortions because of their belief that they’ll rot in hell if they get one. But they do give birth to very high average number of children born in poverty that are condemned to die early or propagate the poverty and their Catholic adherence for as many generations as possible. Your article is limited. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/52 "2012-01-24T04:15:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by \*\*Really Not All That Bright \*\* > Well, if you legalize it, it won’t be illegal anymore, and hence not rape. What do I win?😃 It’s rape because it’s forced sex, not because it is illegal. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Thank you for underlining the fact that I am right, and you have no counter to it better than childish posts like the above. blah blah blah I’m so cool and ironic blah blah blah ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/53 "2012-01-24T04:21:58Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > blah blah blah I’m so cool and ironic blah blah blah Babbling like that doesn’t accomplish anything except demonstrate that you have no meaningful arguments. And that the mods here are tolerant enough that they won’t ban you for such spamming. And I’ve no idea where you got “cool and ironic” from. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/54 "2012-01-24T05:16:20Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > \*blah blah blah blah. . . . > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > blah blah blah it fails blah blah blah I’m always right blah blah blah > [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > blah blah blah I’m so cool and ironic blah blah blah This is not debating. If you have no actual response to a point another poster makes, then do not post. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And that the mods here are tolerant enough that they won’t ban you for such spamming. If you think that a poster is out of line, then report it, yourself. Commenting on whether another poster is out of line is junior modding–itself a violation. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/55 "2012-01-24T05:37:56Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > If you think that a poster is out of line, then report it, yourself. I didn’t actually, which is why I didn’t report it. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/56 "2012-01-24T05:59:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Perhaps you could tell me how smart and funny I must think I am. Clearly, you have insider information. Not very. That wasn’t hard at all. > [@Yookeroo](#): > > Seriously? It’s far more important to prevent rapes than to console those who are raped. I’ll make that trade in a second. My god, what a monstrous opinion. And to think, Conservatives are usually called heartless. Before you go off about how someone’s opinion is monstrous, you sure as hell better check out your own opinion. In the example given, you are not _preventing_ anything. You are _allowing_ an infinitely greater number of legal rapes to occur per year than otherwise would occur in order to reduce the number of illegal rapes which occur per year. In essence, you’re adopting a utilitarian notion where you say it’s okay to do to a certain segment of the population if it benefits the many. Which-- you know-- is great (\<- obvious sarcasm), so long as you’re not part of the population which is legally raped. Of course, the number of people who don’t end up raped as a result of the change is undefined, and I have wonder if you would change your position if you found out that the difference would be one less person raped (I surmise you would). At any rate, all I have to say is get raped, have someone tell you, “Well, tough luck. They’re legally allowed to do what they did!” then come back and tell me it’s a “monstrous opinion”. There’s a very good chance you wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/57 "2012-01-24T07:35:22Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > In the example given, you are not _preventing_ anything. You are _allowing_ an infinitely greater number of legal rapes to occur per year than otherwise would occur in order to reduce the number of illegal rapes which occur per year. In essence, you’re adopting a utilitarian notion where you say it’s okay to do to a certain segment of the population if it benefits the many. Nonsense. The hypothetical is that _somehow_ making it legal would reduce the number of rapes; whether they are legal rapes or illegal ones is besides the point; rape’s just as unpleasant either way. The reason the idea is silly is because there’s no way it would work, not because the rapes that did happen would be legal. There’s nothing about condemning one group to be raped to protect another; presumably the same victims would be raped legally as would be raped illegally, just fewer of them. It’s presuming that less rapes would occur period due to handwaved magic; not because a group is being sacrificed. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/58 "2012-01-24T13:56:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s presuming that less rapes would occur period due to handwaved magic… That’s where I see the argument falling apart. By what mechanism would anyone expect that legalization of rape would reduce incidents of rape? Where abortion is illegal, there is no regulation of those performing abortions and many will turn to dangerous methods in desperation. Regardless of one’s interpretation of such observations, there is a real world mechanism whereby we can rationally expect that abortions would be safer and–hopefully–less prevalent when legalized. I can see that there is no way that making abortion legal would necessarily make it less common. But the article in the OP likewise demonstrates that making it illegal doesn’t make them any less common. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/59 "2012-01-24T14:30:41Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > In the example given, you are not _preventing_ anything. You are _allowing_ an infinitely greater number of legal rapes to occur per year than otherwise would occur in order to reduce the number of illegal rapes which occur per year. What on earth are you talking about? We have already stipulated that the number of rapes goes _down._ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224/60 "2012-01-24T14:35:41Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > That’s where I see the argument falling apart. By what mechanism would anyone expect that legalization of rape would reduce incidents of rape? None; which is why it’s such a hypothetical question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rate-of-abortion-is-highest-in-countries-where-practice-is-banned/610224.md?page=4)